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[pqumsieh]

Pretty much what Smokaz said. I think he makes a good point regarding the projectile speed. Wind, you need to be able to break down the underlying issue, which in this case appears to be that the shot is too easily avoided. You also point out that the damage should be higher at medium range, but we've decided from a design standpoint that we don't want that.

I think the BT lead should consider adding Smokaz's suggestions to the list of topics currently under discussion. Either a cooldown reduction or projectile speed increase might be needed.

However, I stand by my previous point regarding the impact of doctrines on this unit. If you read carefully Wind, you'll note that I mentioned that its not just what is to come for the AVRE, but rather what the AVRE has to face now. We balance units by looking at their vanilla counter parts, otherwise too many factors would exist to properly contextualize the consequences of a change. Against *most* vanilla units, the AVRE will deal enough damage to kill them at medium range.

Against doctrine buffed units who received negative accuracy or damage, the AVRE won't perform as well. So its not really a case of balancing with future patches in mind; rather, I was just pointing out that the current doctrines manipulate its performance, as players would expect.

Summary:

- Check your facts,
- Think about why we might have done what we did
- Try and formulate some constructive feedback based on point 1 and 2

[Killer344]

It's a bottomless pit PQ, don't bother.

[pqumsieh]

Well, no one can say I didn't try.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Wind, you need to be able to break down the underlying issue, which in this case appears to be that the shot is too easily avoided.

That is absolutely not what the underlying issue is. The difficulty of making a good shot is one aspect that contributes to the difficulty of the unit, but it is supposed to be difficult. The AVRE isn't meant to be hard to avoid -- it's supposed to reward good micro, good positioning and good decision making (when to fire and at what) with a kill shot for the user and to punishes laziness, hubris and carelessness from the target.

When facing an AVRE an opposing player has to be on top of their micro -- fortunately they have many warnings of when they need to do so. If they see an AVRE approaching their atg or their blob, they have to make a choice: be lazy and not move it, or move it (and sacrifice the opportunity to take a few shots/continue their push) and save it.

Right now, the unfortunate problem you have created with this poor change is: they can do one or the other. There is a still a risk that not moving the blob/atg will cause it to be destroyed, but they now also have a very decent chance of not losing the unit.

I think the BT lead should consider adding Smokaz's suggestions to the list of topics currently under discussion. Either a cooldown reduction or projectile speed increase might be needed.

This is the exact backwards way to approach balance. Change something unnecessarily to make a unit weaker despite no actual in-game evidence to support that change, and then think about other things about the unit to change to maybe make up for it. All you need to do is not mess with a unit unless it is broken in the first place. You're actually creating more work for yourself and turning balance into a tinkering fest where things are changed just for the hell of it and you have to continuously balance for eternity because you're just constantly changing things.

Measure twice, three times, four times and cut once. That's the way balance should be done on EiR.

Summary:

- Check your facts,
- Think about why we might have done what we did
- Try and formulate some constructive feedback based on point 1 and 2

The facts as they stand are quite correct. In the instance where I was mistaken about the change to supression/pinned modifiers, I immediately acknowledged the error. Here is what I feel the situation stands as:

1) Your change has resulted in, roughly, fewer than two people (in the entire active playerbase of EiR) using AVRE's.
2) Your change was not predicated from players experienced with using AVRE's over any reasonable period of time, nor was any playtesting done following any kind of basic rigour
3) You are not an active player of this mod and thus do not have sufficient experience with the current metagame to make an informed judgement call on whether or not a unit like the AVRE should be changed


You have, as balance team lead, decided to make a unit that costs 240 fuel, 410mp, (100 munitions if 2 repairs are bought), a doctrine unlock, 8 pop and 12 pool... and which is already extraordinarily difficult to earn cost with, less effective at its one intended function: delivering a high AOE, high-damage "explosion" to a targeted area within 40 range every few minutes.

That is a big, big problem.

[tank130]

Wind....... you are needlessly burning up our server space.......lol

But seriously,  Please knock it off with the walls of text filled with fluff and nonsense.

State the facts simply and concisely or please refrain from posting in the balance forums.

[TheWindCriesMary]

That last post does not have "fluff" or "nonsense".

It clearly addresses three key issues and does not stray off topic for even an instant:

1. Why the "difficulty" of an AVRE shot is not the issue
2. Why "tinkering balancing is fundamentally a bad idea for a unit like the AVRE and the mod in general
3. The core problems with the AVRE change.


You may not like big walls of text, but I frankly couldn't care less. If my post were off-topic you'd have a point being against it, but if it is on topic and does not contain off-topic insults to someone's character (as that last post does not), then you can just decide to not read it.

Now stop taking my thread off topic. Talk about the AVRE balance change or make your own post somewhere else to talk about how you don't like long posts.

[Smokaz]

It's not that hard to not come across as a savage animal. You're arguing what the design should be but that's not the player's job. They can argue that some design is poor or that a implementation is not achieving the design, but what the AVRE ideally should be in EIRR is not the player job. A reasonable complaint is that maybe its unclear what the design is. But any player confused about this can just ask whoever is in charge of the design of the AVRE, and they will probably just tell you?

You don't need to be "on top of your micro", you know the AVRE can fire one single round and you know the range and you know where the turret is pointing. You fall back or you try to evade it horisontally. However actually delivering this shot and not having it be evaded is all about the time between firing the shot and the shot landing - projectile speed. The amount of attempts you get at this - cooldown of the ability to shoot the shell.

This thread is muddled with senile antics now and is pretty much done. You should be happy that they are considering to buff it more, in line with their design. It's really all a player can hope for if they think a unit is underperforming.

Measure twice, three times, four times and cut once. That's the way balance should be done on EiR.

In your opinion.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Everything is an opinion Smokaz: my opinions about the AVRE are my own, which is why I'm making a case for them in detail.


The problem with the change to the AVRE is that it fails basic rigour. It was not predicated on any kind of basic in-game evidence. It was not implemented by players with in-game experience using said unit over a respectable period of time. It also has yielded zero pros as as all balance changes should.

Cons:

AVRE's have all but vanished from the metagame
AVRE's are incredibly difficult to earn back cost with compared to far cheaper and easier alternatives
AVRE's no longer perform their default role well or any new role. Instead they perform the same role less effectively.

Pros:

The change is "in keeping" with the "design standpoint" of the BT lead


Can the BT do changes like this? Absolutely. Does that mean some people should not try (even if ultimately unsuccesfully) question these changes and advocate basic balance rigour and due process? No.

[Smokaz]

Everything is an opinion Smokaz.

Yes mine and EIRRMOD's are of equally much worth! I'll just say: make that patch and put 2 guns on dat avre. And he do it. Not really, some opinions are of those who make the mod and some are of those guys who play it.

Jesus, I hope I didn't just pull the short straw and get abandoned by smarter persons to stall you in this thread.

Wait, I think I just did.

Oh, whats this cool PM I just got?

Talk to you later, Wind.

[tank130]

Ok, well this thread has lost it's value as a balance discussion about 10 posts back, so we will move it out of the balance forums.

Wind, I am trying very hard to politely ask you to stop with all the grand standing and just keep to the point. Please.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Wind, I am trying very hard to politely ask you to stop with all the grand standing and just keep to the point. Please.

Point out somewhere in the last few posts (why the AVRE nerf was a poor one and reflects bad balance practices) where I stray off point.

Until then, please stop derailing my thread.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

He's not implying you strayed from the point, he's implying you've engaged in an excessive amount of verbal masturbation, as per usual.

[Smokaz]

This just turned into a regular swingers party

[terrapinsrock]

Swinger PARTY TIME

[Groundfire]

So, im trying to catch up...

Wind thinks a unit he uses all the time has been nerfed to uselessness.

The change was made 6 months ago and was largely just a 37% reduction in the medium range damage, but to compensate, the accuracy for all ranges was increased to 100%.

Balance team is unqualified to make this kind of decision etc. ect.

Did I get it right?

[pqumsieh]

Yep, I also think he thinks I'm balance lead and that when I made that since I am no longer an active player today I must not have been active 6 months ago when the team originally worked through that solution.

He is doing a great job at getting his facts straight! Its funny because we all see it but he doesn't, bets on how long it takes for him?

[Mysthalin]

The change was made 6 months ago and was largely just a 37% reduction in the medium range damage

Wrong. The reduction is a 62.5% reduction in damage. AKA - damage divided by 2.67

Fundamentally the AVRE is crap. I've always liked it as a cool unit - but it has remained completely and utterly wank - and changes such as the range buff at vet 3 removal and severe nerfing of potential cooldown (through the T3's reduction becoming smaller and through the loss of vet based cooldown reductions) did nothing to help it. Sure, it became better at hitting suppressed and pinned units but honestly - who cares?

PQs comment on "future changes to RE" have done nothing but instilled an all-encompassing rage. I've blown up at the dev team for this before, and I understand wind's frustrations now. First of all - future changes which are completely hidden in the la-la land of the balance team forums are something we CAN'T know anything about (which makes PQs jibe at Wind of "not having foresight" even more infuriating). Secondly - it should not MATTER. EiRRs balance has always been done by first balancing the units against each other and then balancing doctrine abilities against each other. Anything else just ends in disaster.

TL;DR :

1. The AVRE has always been wank, changes made it even more wank, refusal to accept this does not help.
2. Telling people to shut up because of "future changes to the doctrine" is moronic and insulting at the least, and potentially even deceptive and fraudulent at worst.

[TheWindCriesMary]

The change should be reverted given the current metagame. It was a bad change at the time, but after using the unit for the past few weeks and trying to make it work (one of two people who do use it) it's become very clear the change was not a good one.

I've just finished a game with some great examples of the current state of the AVRE. Including a shot vs an MG team in a church that inflicted no damage.

Uploading tonight

[TheWindCriesMary]

So, im trying to catch up...

Wind thinks a unit he uses all the time has been nerfed to uselessness.

The change was made 6 months ago and was largely just a 37% reduction in the medium range damage, but to compensate, the accuracy for all ranges was increased to 100%.

Balance team is unqualified to make this kind of decision etc. ect.

Did I get it right?

No you got it very, very wrong. Please refer to Mysthalin's post

[TheWindCriesMary]

This sums it up pretty much exactly.

Wrong. The reduction is a 62.5% reduction in damage. AKA - damage divided by 2.67

Fundamentally the AVRE is crap. I've always liked it as a cool unit - but it has remained completely and utterly wank - and changes such as the range buff at vet 3 removal and severe nerfing of potential cooldown (through the T3's reduction becoming smaller and through the loss of vet based cooldown reductions) did nothing to help it. Sure, it became better at hitting suppressed and pinned units but honestly - who cares?

PQs comment on "future changes to RE" have done nothing but instilled an all-encompassing rage. I've blown up at the dev team for this before, and I understand wind's frustrations now. First of all - future changes which are completely hidden in the la-la land of the balance team forums are something we CAN'T know anything about (which makes PQs jibe at Wind of "not having foresight" even more infuriating). Secondly - it should not MATTER. EiRRs balance has always been done by first balancing the units against each other and then balancing doctrine abilities against each other. Anything else just ends in disaster.

TL;DR :

1. The AVRE has always been wank, changes made it even more wank, refusal to accept this does not help.
2. Telling people to shut up because of "future changes to the doctrine" is moronic and insulting at the least, and potentially even deceptive and fraudulent at worst.

We have a broken balance team with absolutely ridiculous processes and policies and the AVRE has been a severe victim of that.