RIP Avre

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[Killer344]

lol

[Killer344]

God man, I never said the AVRE is ok or otherwise, you made that up out of the blue; just stop hitting refresh for a second. Let this thread rest for five minutes...

[TheWindCriesMary]

If you're not commenting on the AVRE's current state of balance then don't post here. We've got enough guys trying to drag it off topic repeatedly already (98% of whom don't even play this mod on a remotely regular basis).

[tank130]

Wind,

I posted very politely and respectfully twice in this thread. Apparently that is not working.

You are personally attacking a dev member and the people on the team trying to make it work. Every balance team in the history of this mod has made mistakes. I am not saying they made one here, but they may have.

Even if they have made a mistake, and even if they fail to see their mistake, it is completely unacceptable for anyone to so malicious attack members of our Dev team.

This will not be tolerated - at all.

Knock it off or you get a 30 day Ban.

[Bolt]

The main problem with the AVRE is the unit itself relies on luck, and as i hope everyone know's from VCOH luck is not something a unit should be based on.

Now, Projectile speed is advised so units can't escape the AVRE as easily, but this still does not help when the AVRE hits directly on a Pak and kills one man.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Wind,

I posted very politely and respectfully twice in this thread. Apparently that is not working.

You are personally attacking a dev member and the people on the team trying to make it work. Every balance team in the history of this mod has made mistakes. I am not saying they made one here, but they may have.

Even if they have made a mistake, and even if they fail to see their mistake, it is completely unacceptable for anyone to so malicious attack members of our Dev team.

This will not be tolerated - at all.

Knock it off or you get a 30 day Ban.

The balance team currently lacks basic rigor and due process in how it determines and implements changes. This has lead to mistakes -- mistakes, one of which is the AVRE nerf that was not justified or necessary. Without basic controls for the inevitable bias of a balance system without accountability, this is something that will happen again and again. It is a procedural problem.


This is not a personal attack or insult nor is it ad hominem maliciousness. It is an opinion analysis based on the fact that the AVRE was nerfed and so far the only reason to explain it is "our design standpoint".

Please stop derailing my thread. I've asked 3 times now.

[tank130]

But how often is that actually happening Bolt? I have never seen a pak survive a AVRE shot.
I am not saying they don't miss, but how often are they really missing? Is this just a bad dice roll?

[TheWindCriesMary]

But how often is that actually happening Bolt? I have never seen a pak survive a AVRE shot.
I am not saying they don't miss, but how often are they really missing? Is this just a bad dice roll?

They are  failing to kill the pak crew very often now. I had it happen twice last game including a third time where I shot an MG in a building and did 0 damage.

Considering a stuh with heat rounds can reliably decrew an atg in 1-2 shots (5-13 seconds of time) this is patently absurd for a unit that fires every few minutes.

[Bolt]

It could possibly be a dice roll, But i think the gun itself is deflecting or lowering the AOE. I Have no used them since. but it happened two games in a row, i will proceed to use AVRES to provide evidence.

[Groundfire]

God dammit, I do some fail math and Myst comes out of retirement to correct my ass. fml.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Here is a replay of the game I just played. The only reason I still have AVRE's in my company instead of just being smart (in the interest of winning) and getting the obvious choice of crocs or stags is to provide more evidence of how terrible the decision to nerf their damage was.


In this game there are instances of: 1) avre failing to kill a pak, 2) avre failing to do any damage to an MG in a building with a direct hit and 3) avre failing to be even remotely cost-effective

[Bolt]

I have seen Mysthalin post alot and he seems very knowledgeable . He makes a very vaild point that there is no reason to Nerf a unit six months prior to it's final state being released.

[TheWindCriesMary]

It also makes no sense to nerf a unit that that is already universally avoided by everyone because it's perceived as too hard to use and not cost-effective, but hey: "design standpoint."

[Mysthalin]

God dammit, I do some fail math and Myst comes out of retirement to correct my ass. fml.

I sense disturbances in the force.

[XIIcorps]

I did notice way back there <<<
Someone said that the avre was nerfed because it could instagib squads which removed the point of persistancy in eir.
Well then how do you feel about every explosive round in this game that given the right chance can instagib squads.

Goliaths for one are in direct violation of this supposed direction of the mod and cost far less and are much easier to use then the avre.

I will also attest to winds frustration with the avre as of late I've completely removed them from my rse coy because they too frequently would fail to decrew or destroy that pak it shot at and then it has to be baby sat on the field for the next couple of minutes.


That's just my Hadrians wall of text

[TheWindCriesMary]

I did notice way back there <<<
Someone said that the avre was nerfed because it could instagib squads which removed the point of persistancy in eir.
Well then how do you feel about every explosive round in this game that given the right chance can instagib squads.

Goliaths for one are in direct violation of this supposed direction of the mod and cost far less and are much easier to use then the avre.

Last game I played (in the replay i added here) I saw single stuh shots erase full squads (atgs, riflemen etc.) and a wespe shot took out a vet 3 6 pdr in one shot. These units either fire every few seconds or can fire from 100's of game metres across the map... but for some reason when it comes to the AVRE, which fires once every few minutes, has a slow turret and only 40 range... suddenly according to PQ's post on the previous page this goes against the "design standpoint" of the mod and it's time to bring out the nerf stick.

Go figure.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that that makes absolutely no sense.

[XIIcorps]

The games design standpoint "persistancy through experience".

Why not remove all aoe weapons lol.

The hummels fire blanket of death can instagib squads weapon crews and even emplacements.
Yet its considered balanced and is often the sole purpose of using SE.

The avre is almost the sole point of RE, either avre or croc.
But the avre is seldom seen on the battlefield due to these key inconsistencies.

All this talk of balancing units to their vcoh counters, the avre is ment to  be a direct counter to any slow moving atg or weapon crew.

Considering the cost of the avre it would have to kill 3 paks or 2 88's before its earnt its cost back.  Easier said then done in its current state even with extreme micro.

[Groundfire]

Perhaps it's the StuH that's out of line and not the AVRE?

I gotta admit after watching that replay, the AVRE is fine, the STuH is OP and there is just an overabundance of AT in the game that its hard to judge the effectiveness of any tank.

I agree with PQ, having a unit just insta destroy mostly every infantry unit and every support weapon with it's main weapon, that recharges and essentially has an infinite supply of uses does not correspond with the values of this mod.

Any dev will tell you that, if you argue this detail, you'll just be spinning your wheels, wind.

Goliaths are different. They are a one time deal, you may have multiples in your company but you cant reuse them.

Artillery is different. The kind that can one shot units are slow/immobile and very very weak. A trade off

The AVRE is none of these. It had the unique option of a support tank (yes support, use it as such) to blow apart it's MP based counters.

Thats not to say that we are not always evaluating every unit for this trait. Some units might be addressed before others, that's just the nature of the development cycle.


That's all i have to say on the subject.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Perhaps it's the StuH that's out of line and not the AVRE?

I gotta admit after watching that replay, the AVRE is fine, the STuH is OP and there is just an overabundance of AT in the game that its hard to judge the effectiveness of any tank.

How can you possibly say the AVRE is fine? Not one of those avre's earned their cost back or came anywhere close to earning what a stag (that costs <100 fuel) can do. The best ones decrewed an atg or two and the odd MG (that was quickly recrewed) so its a combined achievement of killing a few men in those cases.

I agree with PQ, having a unit just insta destroy mostly every infantry unit and every support weapon with it's main weapon, that recharges and essentially has an infinite supply of uses does not correspond with the values of this mod.

Doesn't correspond with the values of the mod?!!?!?! The following are all units that can insta destroy mostly every infantry unit or ATG with a direct hit via their main gun -- all of which have an infinite supply of uses.

Tiger
Tiger Ace
Stuh
Pershing
Super Pershing
Hummel
Priest
Wespe
HE Sherman
Howitzer
25 pdr
KT
95mm cromwell (forgot this one, thanks Mysthalin)
IST with flame round


In terms of the non arty, if one of these units isn't lucky, like an AVRE can be unlucky, it can take more. Only difference is: these units fire every few seconds. The artillery pieces recharge, are highly mobile (as fast or not much slower than an avre) but on the upside also have way higher range and NO turret. They also fire MORE shots and in some cases, with doctrine buffs, faster than the AVRE.


An AVRE gets 1 shot at 40 range. And right now it doesn't succeed as frequently as it should so it has to drive up, take damage, not kill its target, then drive away.

Your argument, quite literally, does not make ANY sense given all of these other units.

[Mysthalin]

I agree with PQ, having a unit just insta destroy mostly every infantry unit and every support weapon with it's main weapon, that recharges and essentially has an infinite supply of uses does not correspond with the values of this mod.

So when are the Tiger (Ace), (Super) Pershing, StuH, Sherman HE, 95 MM Cromwell and KT getting their splashes reduced to be equal to that of a Panther?