Clarifying a couple things from that closed AVRE thread

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[Uglysori]

Hmm, I wanted to reply to the old RIP AVRE thread but y'all closed it.  A little surprised Wind threw out some tidbits about SE units that are slightly untrue.  IST inc does not instagib units in a real sense.  The inc shot has a very high DoT but its very possible to move a squad out before it dies.  Support crews get "insta-gibbed" simply because they usually can't move out of the fire in time because of pick-up delay.  The inc shot is also based on luck in similar ways as an AVRE shot with a shorter range, timed, lower angle of fire which means obstacles and elevation changes can shotblock, and lower accuracy.  The weapon on the IST that can instagib in a true sense is the main gun.  At vet 3 it's possible to instagib a vet 0 5 man rifle squad.

I am pretty sure Hummels have an extremely difficult time instagibbing full strength MGs in Churchs and Chateaus in one hit.  As Smokaz mentioned it's usually a spacing issue.  What clears out the MG in one hit is usually is the inc burn effective afterwards if you chose inc rounds or if you shot at one of the smaller houses since the MG crew is spaced closer together. 

Just been busy at work and haven't had time to reply to any of the interesting threads as of late.  Please delete if this isn't useful info to anyone.

[pqumsieh]

Infantry take damage in buildings as a result of panel damage. So if you throw a grenade at a building with the infantry on the other side you will still hurt te squad. In addition to panel damage, if you hit the actual entity they will take additional damage.

Because of the greater splash on weapons like the AVRE or Hummel, your more likely hit the actual entity giving the perception that they are better vs garrison. They also deal a higher base damage so that increases their impact as well.

This was an FYI post for those not clear on how damage vs. garrison works. Larger buildings are therefore better garrisons as a result of the fact that entities are more spread out and harder to hit directly.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

But dosent the AVRE have a kill crit to all infantry in buildings thing?

[TheWindCriesMary]

In that thread I listed units that have the potential to one hit full squads and support weapons. Not units that, guaranteed every time, will do it. There is no unit that is guaranteed to do that.

But it is absolutely possible for an IST with a flame round to one-shot a squad or a support weapon (ive seen you take out two atgs with a single shot before Ugly) and it is very possible for a flame hummel to take out a squad in a building in one shot. In both cases it is certainly possible to survive if you move quick and aren't unlucky, but that is true of every unit on the list I provided including the AVRE. In the former, it doesn't matter if its the flame or the shot itself that kills the crew. What matters is that with one shot you've killed a whole squad or an atg/support weapon. That's what the apt comparison was about.

We (a few others pointed out the illogic as well) mentioned this because the erroneous statement was made that all units which can kill a whole squad or a support weapon's crew in one shot, with their main gun, with infinite uses, were against the design standpoint of the mod. Later we figured out that only meant the AVRE and none of the other ones.

The point really still stands.

[aeroblade56]

I can vouch for the inc ist being on the receiving end of it for a long time.

Your chances are very slim you have to anticipate  his shot and move it before it arrive but when you set it back down again it doesn't matter since the ist will already have fired 2 more shots and killed the crew. i think i have only accomplished getting away from inc 2x and that was because the shot missed slightly and i was on the edge of the fire. still lost 1 guy and was badly damaged.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Same here.

I would estimate I've successfully prevented a direct hit from a flame ist killing my atg maybe twice. Unfortunately i've been in the position times beyond count.

[Uglysori]

I can vouch for the inc ist being on the receiving end of it for a long time.

Your chances are very slim you have to anticipate  his shot and move it before it arrive but when you set it back down again it doesn't matter since the ist will already have fired 2 more shots and killed the crew. i think i have only accomplished getting away from inc 2x and that was because the shot missed slightly and i was on the edge of the fire. still lost 1 guy and was badly damaged.

Or build cover in front of the ATG to shot block or just hope it misses? It's not the most accurate shot in the world. I am convinced it usually hits because I'm already at close range and the low angle of fire means that the at gun itself acts a shot blocker.  

In the  grand scheme of things, a single ATG has never been a true deterent for an IST. The fire really doesn't do any dmg to the at gun if that is what you meant. But like I mentioned it's a very powerful DoT.  Support crews usually can't pick up in time.  Squads though should never really be killed to the last man by it.  Any movement whatsoever will save you from being wiped unless your squad is already at low strength, and most of the time you have time to hit retreat.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Squads though should never really be killed to the last man by it.  Any movement whatsoever will save you from being wiped unless your squad is already at low strength, and most of the time you have time to hit retreat.

All of these things are also true of the AVRE (anyone who is paying attention can easily get their infantry out of harms way before the shell fires/hits) so, while I agree with you, the inclusion of the flame IST in the list of "units that have similar one-shot destructive capabilities to a single squad or atg/support weapon" is also still very valid. Keep in mind we're talking a stationary target that isn't micro'd.


In fact, it's actually easier to survive an encounter with an AVRE due to the fact it gets one shot and has such a long aim, turret turn and projectile time than it is with an IST which has a shorter all of the above and gets to fire every few seconds (even faster if locked down).

[TheWindCriesMary]

The AVRE is designed to take out support weapons, not infantry (just like arty). Support weapons have a hard time getting out of the way. If with the investigating being done they find that they do bad against support weapons then there is a problem. Otherwise there isn't (except maybe pricing). If you want to kill infantry, get a different unit, or suppress the infantry first.

Alpha you are supremely confused here. Expecting or wanting the AVRE to be supposed to take out infantry was not stated in the post you responded to.

Look at my post, look at what it's responding to: it is explicitly agreeing that there is no reason why an AVRE should be counted on reliably to kill a full infantry squad and that both it and the IST share that attribute.

You are arguing against a ghost argument.

[Mysthalin]

The AVRE is designed to take out support weapons, not infantry (just like arty).

Arty IS meant to take out infantry, lol.

[shockcoil]

On map arty should be used more as an area denial tool than an actual killing tool tbh

[nikomas]

No way, on map artillery is there for precision strikes. IF it was for area denial, it should be able to fire much more often and with MUCH LESS accuracy, currently it's precision artillery.

[Ahnungsloser]

No way, on map artillery is there for precision strikes. IF it was for area denial, it should be able to fire much more often and with MUCH LESS accuracy, currently it's precision artillery.

When I take a look back and look at all the replays and/or game I played where snipers were counted by indirect fire/artellery I totally agree with (espacially with ) you. lol

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Ok, to end the constant debate i know how to make the AVRE good again.
Revert this

Churchill AVRE will only building crit infantry if the shell lands on, or very near the building

Using the huge kill crit close to buildings without actually hitting the building made it an epic unit at both cleaning out everything but also funny as hell to kill vet with.

[LiquiDeath]

...so return the building crit for nebel too!

(and let the vetwhores cry us a river, seriously do it naow, will bring some fresh air to mod)

[hans]

i have tried avre and i dont see any issue. still kills reliable supportweapons and infantry.

[Smokaz]

Yesterday it cleared out the neuville middle church (building at full health) with 1 shot. QQ so UP