Why did PE get non doctrinal sniper units?

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[SpaceHamster]

I know that the PE had no way of getting their own nifty sniper unless they were reward units but I dont see a reason why you have to fill the gap of the PE's weaknesses, there was a reason why PE weren't given snipers or mg's and I am perfectly fine with them being given through doctrine choices, but how come the PE gets a fallshimjager sniper and factions like US with very little variety of units to choose from dont get any more units?

Seriously I would be happy if some one filled the gap with riflemen the anti infantry, tank disabler, grenadier, and suppressor with something different or even the lack of light tanks like the historical chaffee (best light tank of the war) being a integrated part of all US doctrines.

[CrazyWR]

nobody knows.  Its up there with airburst mortar with poor decisions.

[terrapinsrock]

Because certain PE doctrines (*cough* Tank Destroyers) had pretty much nothing reliable to stop mass ATGs

Plus since PGrens don't seem to do anything, they had to give PE something to thin out the mass Zook Ranger + AB lolblobs running around nowadays.

[SpaceHamster]

Because certain PE doctrines (*cough* Tank Destroyers) had pretty much nothing reliable to stop mass ATGs

Plus since PGrens don't seem to do anything, they had to give PE something to thin out the mass Zook Ranger + AB lolblobs running around nowadays.

Ok, but if Pgrens dont seem to do anything why not buff the Pgrens so they can do something? If tank destroyer doctrine has problems with anti tank guns shouldnt they be using the help of their team mates to do away with mass ATGs? Isn't the fundemental weakness of the tank destroyers doctrine is not being able to handle anti tank weaponry?

[AmPM]

I know that the PE had no way of getting their own nifty sniper unless they were reward units but I dont see a reason why you have to fill the gap of the PE's weaknesses, there was a reason why PE weren't given snipers or mg's and I am perfectly fine with them being given through doctrine choices, but how come the PE gets a fallshimjager sniper and factions like US with very little variety of units to choose from dont get any more units?

Seriously I would be happy if some one filled the gap with riflemen the anti infantry, tank disabler, grenadier, and suppressor with something different or even the lack of light tanks like the historical chaffee (best light tank of the war) being a integrated part of all US doctrines.

Becuase the US doctrines have no shortage of units to fill every available combat role required.

PE did not. Same reason the Brits have mobile support weapons in EIRR.

[CrazyWR]

Because certain PE doctrines (*cough* Tank Destroyers) had pretty much nothing reliable to stop mass ATGs

Plus since PGrens don't seem to do anything, they had to give PE something to thin out the mass Zook Ranger + AB lolblobs running around nowadays.

mortar halftracks.  Hotchkiss stukas.  Infantry.  FLANKING. ffs, we've been over this in the other thread.  It comes down to l2p terrapin.

[SpaceHamster]

Becuase the US doctrines have no shortage of units to fill every available combat role required.

PE did not. Same reason the Brits have mobile support weapons in EIRR.

But the fallshimjager sniper isnt a doctrine unit, it is available to all doctrines regardless of what perks or specializations you choose,

although it is true that the PE doctrine had no sniper to fill the role of long range anti support weapon unit, the US has no non doctrinal heavy tank to fill the role of 'sponging' damage, if I accept your reasoning that the fallshimjager sniper was given to all PE doctrines to fill the gap of anti support weapons because the US doctrines could supplement their own ways of dealing with any wehrmacht unit and filling all possible 'roles' and 'classes' available in COH, wouldn't it be a fair comparison to compare the non doctrinal US to the non doctrinal PE?

[terrapinsrock]

Infantry. 

You clearly haven't touched PGrens. When you have majority of the people in the mod, even the best players stating that PGrens are garbage, something is amiss.

mortar halftracks. 

Did forget about this though, I was able to work miracles with mortar HTs while playing PE

Hotchkiss stukas.

Unless you get close to your target AND have LOS, its unreliable at best.

[Spartan_Marine88]

You clearly haven't touched PGrens. When you have majority of the people in the mod, even the best players stating that PGrens are garbage, something is amiss.

Pgrens are garbage? They are vanilla line infantry sure, nothing special but they aren't garbage.


My biggest issue with PE is that the majority of Wher players don't understand PE and expect you to play like Wher, and are terrible at supporting a PE flank, which can make it quite hard to pull off.

[PonySlaystation]

The entire faction design behind opposing fronts was basically: they lack some units and thus need overpowered strengths to make up it. For example: they don't have an HMG, so we'll give them three times stronger infantry instead. It's not a good way to balance things.

In EIR the OF factions don't have three times stronger infantry which means they've had trouble making up for many essential units, upgrades and abilities that are taken for granted in other factions. The solution is not to give them the same units but to give them different units within the same scope or category. Because a faction can't function if if's so specialized that it can't counter certain units or perform basic actions like suppressing infantry, destroying tanks etc.

The Pak38 wouldn't fit in the Panzer Elite mobile and aggressive playstyle, hence they have the Marder to be able to destroy tanks. The MG42 wouldn't fit because it's also too slow, hence they have the scout car with lockdown to be able to suppress units.

Similarly Panzer Elite cannot make up for the lack of a sniper without having access to overpowered units or a roughly similar unit. The LAHT is close, but not nearly as powerful as a sniper. Hence they were given a sniper with different stats and characteristics to be able to perform the basic role of sniping.

[AmPM]

But the fallshimjager sniper isnt a doctrine unit, it is available to all doctrines regardless of what perks or specializations you choose,

although it is true that the PE doctrine had no sniper to fill the role of long range anti support weapon unit, the US has no non doctrinal heavy tank to fill the role of 'sponging' damage, if I accept your reasoning that the fallshimjager sniper was given to all PE doctrines to fill the gap of anti support weapons because the US doctrines could supplement their own ways of dealing with any wehrmacht unit and filling all possible 'roles' and 'classes' available in COH, wouldn't it be a fair comparison to compare the non doctrinal US to the non doctrinal PE?

None doctrinal US has everything covered. Sherman's soak hits pretty well.

PE don't need the sniper if they help out PE vehicle pool a bit. ACs should be lower cost poolwise, they are a major component for flanking. Same for IHTs.

Then again, Brits got support weapons so you can't argue against adding units to fill gaps.

[CrazyWR]

You clearly haven't touched PGrens. When you have majority of the people in the mod, even the best players stating that PGrens are garbage, something is amiss.

Did forget about this though, I was able to work miracles with mortar HTs while playing PE

Unless you get close to your target AND have LOS, its unreliable at best.

its like you think you play PE more than me. 

A) I have played a ton of pgren spam companies.  They are perfectly capable.  They are not miracle workers, but neither are tommies or volks or rifles.  You asked about countering atgs. I gave you 3 options.  TBH, countering ATGs/killing infantry is not your job as TANK hunters.  Mortar HTs do well, hotchkiss stukas are unreliable, but are available.  The point is that not everything should be as easy as 1 click boom problem solved.  Filling all factions weaknesses by adding new units to fill them instead of tweaking units currently in play/educating player base on how to properly play a faction is poor balancing.  Also, I don't believe every faction should play the same, thats honestly just boring...

[CrazyWR]

None doctrinal US has everything covered. Sherman's soak hits pretty well.

PE don't need the sniper if they help out PE vehicle pool a bit. ACs should be lower cost poolwise, they are a major component for flanking. Same for IHTs.

Then again, Brits got support weapons so you can't argue against adding units to fill gaps.

of course i can.  That wasn't a good idea either.

[SpaceHamster]

None doctrinal US has everything covered. Sherman's soak hits pretty well.

PE don't need the sniper if they help out PE vehicle pool a bit. ACs should be lower cost poolwise, they are a major component for flanking. Same for IHTs.

Then again, Brits got support weapons so you can't argue against adding units to fill gaps.

I have no problem with their being modded units into modded companies due to the modded nature of the game, its just the justification for filling a weak gap in PE makes me want to question why the weak gap for the US (you will find many) still hasn't been filled,

I will be more precise:



Do you see the non doctrinal anti tank infantry available for the US? in Vcoh there was no need for them as in early game the wehrmacht and the panzer elite had to work for the great quality tanks like the panther in order to be able to completely crush the US army, the way relic counter acted this was by making the US rifles become stronger the longer they stayed alive.

How ever no such mechanic exists for rifles, although they are still great as they are given bars, grenades, and stickies right off the bat they can be similary compared to Pgrens as being weak and unable to use their flanking abilities due to mass amounts of armor early game.

How ever I 'was' fine with the US not having a non doctrinal infantry anti tank, as they had the 57mm to counter PE armor, how ever now that the PE has a fallshimjager sniper what counteracts that if all capable AT weapons that are not mounted on tanks can be nullified by such a threat? Of course the US has its own snipers and jeeps but the point still stands that there are no infantry anti tank men available for the US, thus the point that the US non doctrine has everything covered is false.

All other factions have anti tank infantry, grenadier panzershrecks, sapper piats, PE tank busters, it is only the US that is lacking anti tank infantry that is non-doctrinal, just like how the PE is the only one that was lacking a sniper unit that is non-doctrinal.

This is just a example how ever as you can find more glaring weaknesses in the US company as they should exist in order to not make them the end all be all faction.

[terrapinsrock]

A) I have played a ton of pgren spam companies.  They are perfectly capable.  They are not miracle workers, but neither are tommies or volks or rifles.  You asked about countering atgs. I gave you 3 options.  

The problem though is the few things PE does have to counter these (Forgot about the AC as well) , they get lost between all the over buffed things that Americans are currently getting plus the pool limits on ACs and IHTs

its like you think you play PE more than me.  

A)  TBH, countering ATGs/killing infantry is not your job as TANK hunters.  Mortar HTs do well, hotchkiss stukas are unreliable, but are available.  The point is that not everything should be as easy as 1 click boom problem solved.  .

The problem though is that if a blob of infantry is coming towards you and if it isn't Tommies, you can't even hold the line. You basically have to run away and hope you have Wher allies that can deal with infantry.....Plus, with the AT heavy metagame nowadays, you have to confront ATGs yourself sooner or later.

So I guess the question that needs to be asked is that instead of why add the Falls sniper, but instead the question should be why not tone down the silly buffs that Infantry and AB are gettting atm and lowering/eliminating pool limits for ACs and IHTs?

[AmPM]

I have no problem with their being modded units into modded companies due to the modded nature of the game, its just the justification for filling a weak gap in PE makes me want to question why the weak gap for the US (you will find many) still hasn't been filled,

I will be more precise:

Do you see the non doctrinal anti tank infantry available for the US? in Vcoh there was no need for them as in early game the wehrmacht and the panzer elite had to work for the great quality tanks like the panther in order to be able to completely crush the US army, the way relic counter acted this was by making the US rifles become stronger the longer they stayed alive.

How ever no such mechanic exists for rifles, although they are still great as they are given bars, grenades, and stickies right off the bat they can be similary compared to Pgrens as being weak and unable to use their flanking abilities due to mass amounts of armor early game.

How ever I 'was' fine with the US not having a non doctrinal infantry anti tank, as they had the 57mm to counter PE armor, how ever now that the PE has a fallshimjager sniper what counteracts that if all capable AT weapons that are not mounted on tanks can be nullified by such a threat? Of course the US has its own snipers and jeeps but the point still stands that there are no infantry anti tank men available for the US, thus the point that the US non doctrine has everything covered is false.

All other factions have anti tank infantry, grenadier panzershrecks, sapper piats, PE tank busters, it is only the US that is lacking anti tank infantry that is non-doctrinal, just like how the PE is the only one that was lacking a sniper unit that is non-doctrinal.

This is just a example how ever as you can find more glaring weaknesses in the US company as they should exist in order to not make them the end all be all faction.

US Anti-tank infantry....STICKY RIFLE. Oh look, its a tank no go zone more effective by far than a schrek squad at keeping enemy armor away.

[brn4meplz]

US Riflemen are 6 men squads and are fantastic at re-crewing. Their heavy utility is in the ability to have on demand suppression, vehicle disable and dps. When you lose one of your 4-6 ATG's you simply jump back on it.

Comparing roster sizes is mostly irrelevant, because most of the PE units are exceedingly specialized.

The Sniper is there because Support creep was crippling to PE. Even with Mortar Halftracks player were able to walk ATG's into you with great effect. While PE players could still win games, the amount of energy expended and the ease at which it could all go disastrously wrong was too high.

I'll say it know too, the Support gren might be getting added as well. Not an HMG team but PE themed mobile suppression, it looks nice, feels nice and fits the theme.

[SpaceHamster]

US Anti-tank infantry....STICKY RIFLE. Oh look, its a tank no go zone more effective by far than a schrek squad at keeping enemy armor away.

But will the sticky destroy a tank? How many stickies will it require me to destroy a tank if I am only using stickies, this is the part where you say "you need to use a AT gun and your own tanks to destroy tanks not the sticky because the riflemen don't have proper anti tank weaponry". Although it would be funny to kill a tank with only stickies it is not cost effective.

Also I am not comparing the roster sizes at all(didn't even mention anything about that), Its just makes me question why if PE were given support weapons (and probably the coming MG for the PE) because they didn't have support weapons why don't the US get a proper anti tank infantry squad if they have none?

I mean I have played tons of COH mod's and although they are not similar at all to EiR they still address the problem of the US not having anti tank infantry by adding it in some way (look at armored infantry from battle of the bulge). I mean no one would cry OP if you can just allow the riflemen to have a bazooka upgrade(non doctrinal of course) or something.

[CrazyWR]

US Anti-tank infantry....STICKY RIFLE. Oh look, its a tank no go zone more effective by far than a schrek squad at keeping enemy armor away.

also, infantry gets zooks, armor gets a zook, and ab gets rrs...

[Smokaz]

Americans and wehr - we have everything
Brits - we have almost everything
PE - hi