Ukraine and the Crimea

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[XIIcorps]

According to the News, this is all settling down now and talks are being held.

[Sachaztan]

According to the News, this is all settling down now and talks are being held.

Where did you get that from? If anything the situation seems to be deteriorating due to Russia's lack of cooperation.

[PonySlaystation]

The year is 1932: Germany lies in economical, territorial and national ruin. The war debt from the Versailles peace and global financial crisis has caused inflation to skyrocket, unemployment in Germany to reach 40% and millions of people are forced into the street to starve, thousands die. Germany’s massive territorial losses means hundreds and thousands of German citizens now belong to new countries and the blame for the war fell solely on Germany’s shoulders.

Is it surprising that they wanted revenge for the horrible conditions imposed upon them by the allied countries in the Versailles peace? Or to distrust the democratically elected and dominantly Jewish Weimar republic who had done nothing to remedy or avert this downfall? This was the stab in the back.

1933 Hitler becomes elected Reich chancellor and the National Socialist workers party wins a clear majority of 54 percent of all votes. In short time he manages to eradicate unemployment by creating more than six million jobs building homes and roads and reinstate Germany’s position as the largest industrial power in Europe, give bread to the starving, nullify the inhumane demands made in Versailles, give back Germany many of her territorial cores, keep German families from being eradicated from their homes into the street as well as institute social reforms for better working conditions and wages for factory workers, for paid vacations and inexpensive travel, for pensions, health care and reforms in school drastically improving academic skills and motivation by enforcing authoritarian discipline, formal drilling as well as inciting students to strive for a purpose and sense of community and by instituting mandatory physical exercise every morning and afternoon.

Because of the stab in the back myth and Germany’s long tradition of anti-Semitism the Jews would receive much of the blame as it was believed that Germany was a country for Germans and the Jews had no place since they were labeled traitors. After more than ten years of trying to get them out of the country and let them have their own country it was deemed impossible in the midst of war and the only way for revenge would be the complete annihilation of the Jewish race.

Ya, it was only 6 million fucking Jews he killed. I mean really, why would we just label him as a Jew killer......

Or what about the allied bombings or the soviet massacres? Civilian casualties are always unfortunate but it’s not as black and white as you put it. Hitler was like many Europeans at that time openly against Jews but he only played a small role in the holocaust which was orchestrated mainly by Himmler and fueled by Goebbels propaganda. More importantly it was not a single man effort and it was not a German holocaust.
It was a European holocaust and Germans, French, Poles, Finns, Slavs and Italians everywhere participated in the bloody hatred for all that is Jewish. I think at some point you have to realize that you cannot put the sole blame on any one person or country for a global conflict or devastating event of such scale just like the allied countries were wrong to impose such an unfair peace which inevitably lead to another world war.

Hitler was not a tyrant who imposed his will on the poor Germans. He had himself been influenced by National Socialists and became their spokesperson. He was not single handedly responsible for a nationwide and even continental wave of anti-Semitism. It’s just as naive as thinking that the American president is responsible for an upswing in the economy when in fact he only has a smaller role in the legislative process and mostly works as Americas face in foreign politics. Just as I am probably wrong to give him praise for many things where he only played a small role and is given the face of millions. But I am giving you the other side of the coin. It is not sensible to say that he was evil. Was he evil for believing the same thing that millions of others believed was good and right at that time? If you had lived at that time you would have likely supported the popular view yourself, just as you now believe that human equality is good and right.

Hitler was a man of historical circumstances. Germany lies in ruins and radical groups that look for drastic change in society gain power (you can draw many parallels with modern day Greece). If he had not come to power it is likely that communists would have instead and it would be the same thing over again. The only historical event that could have prevented Hitler’s rise to power, World War II and the millions of civilian and military casualties would be a fair peace in Versailles after World War I.

I guess we should also ignore the human science experiments he did. The theft of Millions and Millions of dollars in artifacts, oh, and the few million precious items he destroyed.

Human experimentation was more common at that time due to being more reliable than testing on animals. All research was top secret as giving the exact information of the procedures to the public would not be good publicity. Germany however is the only great power to have this information declassified. But there is no reason to believe that other countries have not had similar state sponsored programs. In fact even in Sweden, a small and neutral country the amount of human experimentation has been uncovered to be extensive and even dating as late as the 1970s.

Oh, maybe it was when he threatened the Catholic church to support him or he would wipe them out.

The catholic center party was one of his largest political allies and not because he threatened them but because he stood for conservative social values and promised that there would be good conditions for a deep and religious life. The idea that communism and national socialism has contempt for religious life and burned bibles and churches is a myth and was common propaganda in America.

[GrayWolf]

Thank you Pony, thank you 

[narref]

Not sure if Pony is just trolling or dangerously ignorant.

Anyway NSDAP got 44% on the election in march 1933, that is not 54% nor clear absolute majority.
That was the last democratical elections until the end of WWII since a few months later the NSDAP was the only legal party.

And yes the economy of nazi germany grew after 1933, unemployement rates descdended even faster than in other countries, at the expense of having an industry directly focused to war and seizing the goods from "the enemy" (jews).
As a result of an economy focused on war industry consumer goods production went down there was rationing in food, clothing, metal, wood... The average wages went lower whereas the prices went higher.

There was some "social reforms" mainly propaganda things like the volkswagen a cheap car for everyone which was never delivered for the people who paid it but production was shifted for military used instead.

Anyway...

[tank130]

Not sure if Pony is just trolling or dangerously ignorant.

It is terrifying just how ignorant he may be. It is this type of ignorance and lack of education that has people in today's world making catastrophic mistakes.

Do some more history Pony. Look up what happened prior to the March elections of 33. Look up the Brown shirts. The mobs lead by Hitler that beat people, burned business, and threatened the lives of anyone apposing Hitler.

NSDAP got 44% by scaring the shit out of people, not because of support of the majority. His party got money through extortion. 
Calling Hitler a great leader is just stupid. He used a desperate country filled with starving people, beat them into submission, then stole all the wealth and claimed he turned the country around. He did not do any of this for his people, he did this solely for his own agenda and greed.

Ugh.... it just disgusts me that you could be this ill informed and ignorant of reality.

[Bear]

Right Tank, you're (enter yours country here), I forgot, sorry.

You guys have super heroes and all the stuff, you see world in black and white.

Let me be direct : Hitler have done lot of good stuff for Germany. Also Democracy isn't the only "right" system. There's also republic, oligarchy, socialism, comunism... Every system has pros and cons. USA have for example "Democracy" system : fighting 40 countries in less than 20 years. Burning Churches ? It becomes even funnier.

First of all, you know what being politican means ? Politican =/= General or warrior. Just saying. Hitler was both the politican and general, but you must distinguish beetwen both roles.

EDIT :

lol, Tank isn't American.

Hitler wasnt a good politican and he wasnt a general.
Hitler was just a stupid asshole as politican and the worst general ever!

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/2706187/Switch_reloaded_Obersalzberg_Adolf_Hitler_Stromberg_Nazi_Verarsche

[Sachaztan]

Does no one find it disturbing that Russia says they will take the upcoming Crimean "election" under consideration, whilst Ukraine says they will never let Crimea go? All the while keeping troops on Ukrainian soil (which in a sane world would be considered an instant declaration of war)...

This is a war waiting to happen if I ever saw it.

[PonySlaystation]

NSDAP got 44% on the election in march 1933, that is not 54% nor clear absolute majority.

They were in a coalition with the German National People's Party. 44% was much larger than any other party.

[Bear]

They were in a coalition with the German National People's Party. 44% was much larger than any other party.

With the Reichstag fire election campaign could be directed by the NSDAP after the fire in open terrorist webs. By mid-May 1933 in Prussia alone more than 100,000 political opponents, the majority of Communists, arrested and taken to makeshift concentration camps and torture chambers.
So Hitler won the elections....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

[PonySlaystation]

Do some more history Pony.

History is a bit more complex than slogans and hatemongering and not as glaringly simple as you try to put it. I wonder if you even read my post 

[tank130]

History is a bit more complex than slogans and hatemongering and not as glaringly simple as you try to put it. I wonder if you even read my post 

Your post is pathetic and lacks real substance. In fact, it borders on Nazi propaganda. Excusing Hilter of massacring 6 millions because "everyone hated the jews then" is disgusting.

Yes Pony, we read your post. You are delusional and need some education.

[narref]

History is a bit more complex than slogans and hatemongering and not as glaringly simple as you try to put it. I wonder if you even read my post 

I completely agree with that. I don't even think Hitler was retarded or the devil. But your post was extremly nazi biased.


I do think Hitler was a very charismatic leader, and he got next to him very intelligent people such a Goebbels.
It is not that everything related to his ideology was wrong or evil. Some of the main aspects of nazism (or fascism) are actually quite noble imo, such a the spirit of an unified society, but the negative aspects were far beyond the positive ones.

And yes the nazis lead a poor and humiliated germany into something, but that something was just war. Not social welfare .

[chefarzt]

Did u ever get to think that 75 % of people are just stupid and vote the fucker who makes the biggest wrong promises?
And btw Hitler cheated the system back then too.
Statesman? My ass.Tactical genuis? My ass.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Not to interupt this pointless argument but i think this is something you guys might want to look at.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Bear]

Just read:

Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State
by Götz Aly
He utilizes reams of statistics to illustrate how the widespread Nazi program of expropriation of Jewish property and plunder of the resources of occupied nations was vital in lifting the standard of living of ordinary Germans

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Beneficiaries-Plunder-Racial-Welfare/dp/0805087265/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394213212&sr=1-1&keywords=G%C3%B6tz+Aly
Paperback: 448 pages
Publisher: Picador; Reprint edition (January 8, 2008)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0805087265
ISBN-13: 978-0805087260

[Unkn0wn]

Lol, nice derail

[chefarzt]

Fuck, was just about to say that..

[Bear]

By the way

https://www.campact.de/ttip/appell/english-version/

[PonySlaystation]

The United States despite only playing a smaller role in the last years of the war had enough time to bomb civilian cities in Germany and Japan, starve thousands of Germans to death in prisoner of war camps, use millions of Germans as forced slave labor and drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. When Pearl Harbor broke out thousands of Japanese-Americans were put into concentration camps despite probably being loyal to the US. I don’t want to imagine what would have happened to them if the Japanese had invaded the mainland and began looting and pillaging as was the norm on the eastern front. Roosevelt and Truman must have been hatemongering, sadistic, devil incarnate butchers and that’s the full story and unquestionable truth. All those history books enlightening and offering explanations and detailing the circumstances of those events must be American propaganda.

Excusing Hilter of massacring 6 millions because "everyone hated the jews then" is disgusting.

I never said it was an excuse. I am giving you some of the reasons why it happened and how it could have been prevented.