Ukraine and the Crimea

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[tank130]

Oh really? It's fucking crazy to say that saving an entire country of people from being destitute and practically starving to death because the entire civilized world is making an effort to punish them for something that's not their fault isn't good? Hitler did a ton of bad shit but he also pulled one of the worst off countries following world war 1 out of an economical slump and made them a force to be reckoned with. The standard of living in Germany sky rocketed following his policies and regardless if they would have worked long term without war its almost a miracle he could pull something that life changing off in such a short period of time. I don't know if you had to see the pictures of people in Germany using the german mark as wallpaper because it was so fucking worthless or the pictures of people bringing wheel barrows full of money to pay for a simple piece of bread but it was fucking disgusting. You can say Hitler was a bad guy and you wouldn't be wrong at all, but if anything he was at least partially a product of shit storm that the world decided to bring upon central Europe for their part in World War 1.

Really Ray?

He was successful in bring Germany out of poverty for a couple of reasons.

1.) Using violence, extortion, rape, and death he was able to get himself into power as a dictator.

2.) Then using that power, he took all the wealth from the Jews. We are talking about millions (Billions in today's value). All Jewish property, valuables, businesses and banks were confiscated by the German State. Melting down their gold jewelry, teeth and other property. He also used the jews as a cheap labor force, paying them nothing. It cost him only the guards, lodging of the concentration camp and food they ate. All of this was at the minimum level to keep them alive.

Once got that momentum going, it was pretty much expanding on its own. The he started the War. Countries that were occupied were also stripped of all its treasures and assets. The occupation of France alone netted Hitler 5 Trillion pounds in currency.


I don't know Ray. I have troubles complimenting someone who uses extortion to get into power, then death and theft for finances.
The Americans were able to get out of their depression without killing 6 million jews................

[chefarzt]

Yeah just a few natives.
You guys should just realize that H-Dude was a lunatic, emporered by industry and got into this position because of a flawed political system backed up by the inherited studpidity of mankind.

[I2ay]

There's still an order of events, did he steal money from the jews and all the land he conquered? Yes. Did he come into power and as his first act steal money from all the jews? No. He was beloved by his people because he was able to elevate Germany in a mostly legitimate fashion. Mot of the industrial expansion that put people back to work was in military goods, and I'm not refuting that in the long term without war that doesn't help their economy, but even America was only dragged out of its economic slump because big surprise, they ended up doing the same thing Germany was doing, they put everyone to work making military goods. If you look at strictly the 1933-1936 years of Hitler in office, he was able to accomplish a lot. NONE OF IT WORKS WITHOUT GOING TO WAR. I'm NOT disagreeing that everything that was done was terrible for the rest of the world. You can't simply decide that someone is holistically bad no matter what actions they take or how bad those actions are, the world is not black and white tank. There are grey areas in every terrible person and event. You can probably say that just about everything past about 1936/37 starts to become just about the worst a single human being can orchestrate, but before he crosses that threshold of being a complete asshole he was understandably considered a hero across Germany.

[chefarzt]

You dont realize that HE did nothing. It was his Entourage of brownnosers of powermongers.
Greed and social envy made it possible.
 Basicly just a projection of all Human flaws, thats what he was.
Merging his semi politics with semi religion.
Even a fuckn Cannuck like should be able realize that.(no offense intended MUHHAHHAHAH)
"measuring rays headsize"
no u cant

[tank130]

There's still an order of events,

And that's part of the flaw in your argument Ray. You and most other people tend to look at the bad he did once he was in power and ignore the evils that got him in to Power.

He was NOT loved by the majority of Germany. In fact, He did not even win the majority in the election. Prior to the March election of '36, groups of Hitler supporters terrorized the country of Germany. At the time they were labeled the Brown shirts. They used extortion, Rape, and physical violence to terrorize people into supporting Hitler. Actually supporting is the wrong words. They were terrorized into not apposing him. There is a massive difference between supporting (loving Hitler) and being too terrified to appose him.

Prior to the election, Jewish businesses were burned to the ground if they did not sell at ridiculously low process to the Brown shirts. If the BS did not burn it to the ground (because they needed it) they would terrorize the patrons of the business until the business went under or sold to the BS out of desperation.

There were many people who supported Hitler, just like there are many people who feel slaughtering 6 million jews was OK at the time. But the reality is the majority of people were terrified of Hitler and the brownshirts, so they did not appose him.

It was this terrorizing and fear of opposition that allowed Hitler to get into power. Then the remaining atrocities started.

[PonySlaystation]

It is generally believed that giving bread to the people, promising jobs and homes and a future for Germany at a time when it had none is what caused him to gain support. I'm having a very hard time believing that terror forced people into voting for him. Street violence did not work in his favor, it made him unpopular with a lot of people and is one of the main reasons why he disbanded most of the SA soon after he came to power.

[AmPM]

And that's part of the flaw in your argument Ray. You and most other people tend to look at the bad he did once he was in power and ignore the evils that got him in to Power.

He was NOT loved by the majority of Germany. In fact, He did not even win the majority in the election. Prior to the March election of '36, groups of Hitler supporters terrorized the country of Germany. At the time they were labeled the Brown shirts. They used extortion, Rape, and physical violence to terrorize people into supporting Hitler. Actually supporting is the wrong words. They were terrorized into not apposing him. There is a massive difference between supporting (loving Hitler) and being too terrified to appose him.

Prior to the election, Jewish businesses were burned to the ground if they did not sell at ridiculously low process to the Brown shirts. If the BS did not burn it to the ground (because they needed it) they would terrorize the patrons of the business until the business went under or sold to the BS out of desperation.

There were many people who supported Hitler, just like there are many people who feel slaughtering 6 million jews was OK at the time. But the reality is the majority of people were terrified of Hitler and the brownshirts, so they did not appose him.

It was this terrorizing and fear of opposition that allowed Hitler to get into power. Then the remaining atrocities started.

That sounds like an effective way to win. Terrible yes, but effective.

Shit, Genghis Khan killed nearly 10% of the worlds current population. I would still label him as a great leader who took a nomadic steppe people and conquered the known world with them. Hell, they only stopped in Europe because it was considered too poor and dirty to be worth conquering.

Hitler was an effective leader, who blended cult worship and ritual with politics and created a whole new beast that continues to exist today. That is pretty damned amazing. His reformed Germany conquered all of Europe with new tactics and methods of war, sure, they were not of his devising but none of it would have happened without him as the figurehead.

You can appreciate horrible things that were done as amazing and still know they were horrible. Look at the allied bombing raids, 2.7 million tons of bombs, that's god damned amazing. Horrifying, but amazing.

I think people are getting confused and thing great means good...

[I2ay]

When I'm on the side of graywolf and ampm I know these are dark times. Gee Gee, exiting thread.

[tank130]

His reformed Germany conquered all of Europe with new tactics and methods of war...

I think you missed the part where he got his ass kicked..... If he was a great leader and a great politician, there would be a whole lot more dudes speaking German right now.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Can we please lock or delete this thread?
Its turned into 10 pages of hitler, add 40 more and a colour and we might have a book.