New Doctrine Batch

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[Mister Schmidt]

Hi Guys,

Scotzmen is gonna be off sick for a few days so unfortunately we may have to wait a little while for the new Commando doctrine, but not to worry!

We have targeted the next 3 doctrines we wish to look at, and they are:

Defensive*
Infantry
Luftwaffe


Okay, so here's the exciting part.

We are going to an even bigger overhaul of doctrines that we originally planned, so please all bear with me.

We've decided each faction will have 3 main roles, with a doctrine dedicated to each. They are:

Infantry/Support
Infantry
RCA
Scorched Earth
Defensive/Support*

Mobility/Mechanized
Airborne
Commandos
Luftwaffe
Blitzkrieg


Heavy Armour/Vehicles
Armour
RSE
Tank Destroyers/Panzerkrieg*
Terror

*name pending change

Yup, that's right, we're going to rename Defensive and Tank Destroyers. Both of these names insinuate such a strict & rigid playstyle, we want to generalize them a bit more. The names are not final, so I welcome ideas of what we can call them instead.


Scotzmen is the guy doing a lot of the work and the majority of this idea comes from him, so here is his design philosophy:

T1 may aswell be army wide small buffs. I don't even know why we have t1's if they can be all selected.
So, t1's shall be catering to boosting what the doctrine is all about, but at a faction wide level.


Doctrines need to be catering to what the doctrine is all about. Teamwork becomes a lot more imperative. We can also get away with bigger buffs, as they will only buff a specific part of the faction. At the moment it's just buffs all over the place, providing a slightly buffed faction army, catering to specific play styles, rather than actual Doctrines.

So moving Doctrines to become more specialized for what they do should be made priority.


So here goes:

These are the doctrines that should encompass the entire army:
RCA
Scorched Earth
Infantry
Defensive

Each should buff the core of every faction:
EG
Infantry, should focus on buffing mainline infantry and support weapons, with Shermans as support.
Rangers mess this up a little as they are elite infantry, so something like dedicating am "elite Doctrine Tree" to them could be easily done. Tier 3's that provide synergy could be indirect. Like extra weapons or uses for abilities.

Rca is more straight forward, with them only having Artillary and support weapons as unlocks. Basically infatry company supported by company auxillary attachments. The infantry foot slogging doctrine

Then the rest are simple.
Commandos, focus on elite hit and run tactics and units. Armour, focus on prowess of using tanks to kill both AI and Infantry.
 

What I'm asking of you guys now, is a few more doctrine drafts

Bearing in mind everything I've said above, and in line with Scotz' quote, we'd love if you guys could draft up
Defensive*
Infantry
Luftwaffe

So, try to keep with the design outlined above, in terms of strength, take inspiration from David & EG's drafts below.

Shock and Gren super kickass AB doctrine

Shock and Gren super badass Mando doctrine

FINAL NOTE: ^Those two doctrines are still subject to change if they end up not following this new design.


Feedback welcome here on this new development guys, thanks.

[EliteGren]

I agree, doctrine names need to cover a larger spectrum of units. This is absolutely needed in order to get some better doctrines in already. Better not as in overpowered, better as in more variety and options for possible doctrine bonuses.

I think especially the allied doctrine design is fundamentally flawed by the names they were given. As an example, Axis has Terror. This can mean anything from tanks to support weapons to infantry. And guess what? All those things are buffed massively in that doctrine. Now look at Armour. The name already bottlenecks you into armor buffs because it would seem illogical to buff something else.

It might look like something minor, but it single-handedly decides what kind of units from your unit roster it's going to buff. Honestly they should be renamed so they aren't too focused, perhaps Infantry could be something like Breakthrough Tactics, Armour Offensive Operations. It would NOT force the doctrine to only buff infantry or armour units, but rather promote a healthy mix of them because all are useful and receive buffs that are inline with the doctrines theme.

After the new name was decided, you could slowly go through the doctrines and add alot more buffs that you would otherwise not be able to add, resulting in a more exciting doctrine because you are NOT forced to build an entire company of armored units just because the name (and the doctrine buffs) are telling you to do so.

[tank130]

I would like to add that name changing was my idea...... but whatever.

I would suggest changing Blitz as well. That was originally how the discussion started with Nikomas & I. Having slow ass items like a Tiger and cloaked storms doesn't feel to "Blitzkrieg" to me.

Wouldn't the name Blitz and faced paced units fit better in PE?


I am not sure I completely agree with Scotz idea of how to change the doctrine design, but I am more than willing to see how it all comes together first. This mod needs a massive overhaul and I am more than willing to come along for the ride as it is done.

[Mister Schmidt]

I think rather than change the name 'Blitz', we should change what is actually in Blitz.

Controversial as it may be, but we could sack off Storms & Tigers & move them to Terror. KT could begone, Blitz can have some rad hardcore infantry that always deploy in a 0pop halftrack to get as close to luft/AB/commandos as possible

[tank130]

I see a massive derail in....5,...4...3..2....

Me thinks a new topic should be posted

[Hobomancer]

I think rather than change the name 'Blitz', we should change what is actually in Blitz.

Controversial as it may be, but we could sack off Storms & Tigers & move them to Terror. KT could begone, Blitz can have some rad hardcore infantry that always deploy in a 0pop halftrack to get as close to luft/AB/commandos as possible

Tbh i think the KT needs to stay, Considering that its pretty much the biggest example of what the axis factions represent ingame 'Bigger and better' Also you might aswell sack storms anyway considering you took away their primary function ages ago.

One thing though that i'd personally like to see for terror would be the King of tanks unlock giving you the choice between the Old old old tiger ace or the king tiger, The one without any special abillities that terror had in vcoh before the KT was introduced and the Kt, Thats mostly though because the Old tiger ace has the coolest skin in the world The way i thought of this is you'd have the KT as the heavy heavy slow brick of massive health with its Anti tank focused gun and the tiger ace as a faster nimbler Anti infantry alternative, With both costing the same or having a shared limit to prevent buying more than one heavy in the doctrine.

Just my thoughts and retarded ideas.

[Unkn0wn]

Should change the name of all doctrines, otherwise people are going to have the perception only the ones with new names are different doctrines, and continue to be stuck in the old mindset vis a vis the doctrines that didnt undergo a name change. (making it more difficult to take things away from them, i.e a blitz doctrine without tigers or storms or whatever) If you truly want to break with the past, you should basically start with a blank page of doctrine concepts and shove all of the doctrine units in as they fit, regardless of historical ties.

[tank130]

Should change the name of all doctrines, otherwise people are going to have the perception only the ones with new names are different doctrines, and continue to be stuck in the old mindset vis a vis the doctrines that didnt undergo a name change. (making it more difficult to take things away from them, i.e a blitz doctrine without tigers or storms or whatever) If you truly want to break with the past, you should basically start with a blank page of doctrine concepts and shove all of the doctrine units in as they fit, regardless of historical ties.

+1000

[Mister Schmidt]

Definitely worth considering

[EliteGren]

I think that might alienate a lot of people though

[tank130]

I think that might alienate a lot of people though

Why?

[EliteGren]

Drastic changes like moving Storms and Tigers to Terror may be perceived as unwelcome by the community I feel, as they have been a staple and signature unit of that doctrine forever. If you rename all doctrines then that MIGHT work and lessen the alienation factor.Personally I think the way some doctrines are called right now like terror and blitz are alright and should be kept, its just the worst offenders like armour or infantry that need to be given a different name.

[Hobomancer]

Heres my take on how to change the defensive doctrine into a generalist infantry one, The only tree im not fully satisfied with is the bottom one, Numbers are subject to change as balance dictates, Anyway enough stalling, I give you the Jaeger doctrine.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vch54I5P_hCHijIbn2hwALjaIGOMDdxB0Cs6Y10RWRk/pubhtml

[aeroblade56]

Heres my take on how to change the defensive doctrine into a generalist infantry one, The only tree im not fully satisfied with is the bottom one, Numbers are subject to change as balance dictates, Anyway enough stalling, I give you the Jaeger doctrine.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vch54I5P_hCHijIbn2hwALjaIGOMDdxB0Cs6Y10RWRk/pubhtml

Good god.

4 men grens with abmush +5 HP +heroic armor

+ t4 with -20% accuracy on the move

+ additional 5 HP perman with t3.

so you get a 90 HP squad with heroic armor and -20% accuracy that can cloak in cover and can purchase faust and can get mp44s with better reload and burst duration?.

Hello super storms.

[koimn6]

noooooooo! T.T

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dcX6jGc5R2M4cEONhnqX64V66fSHWAXtFuHLofwxy6g/edit#gid=0

[Hobomancer]

Good god.

4 men grens with abmush +5 HP +heroic armor

+ t4 with -20% accuracy on the move

+ additional 5 HP perman with t3.

so you get a 90 HP squad with heroic armor and -20% accuracy that can cloak in cover and can purchase faust and can get mp44s with better reload and burst duration?.

Hello super storms.

Yes they are basically what Rangers with operation overlord should be, Just axis, And without a squad based suppression break, Focusing on the three standard wehr infantry units only, feels very narrow and very bland especially if the doctrine is going to be remade with a wider focus, Which this has, And no these guys dont have heroic armor.

Also oak leaves with mid t4 still beat them out handily for survivabillity and dps i believe.

Regardless, The numbers have yet to be run through hicks and as i did say they are subject to change as balance dictates.

[GrayWolf]

Just ignore the unfinished Commando company. Scroll down for Infantry company (USM).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ByO13e6gzVIacW6I9eRjHZy4zFlvbb-fOfPM_q5nUDo/edit#gid=0

I don't think it's balanced, but I hope you'll like the main idea of each t4. Basicly it's a bit changed infantry doctrine, but it seems cooler to me and more enjoyable.


EDIT:

I like traps Jaeger doctrine. You can go both offensive and defensive depending on player's preference. I'm not saying it's balanced but it looks like fun to play with.

[Hobomancer]

I've massively reworked my jaeger doctrine, Its quite a bit different and i've refocused the entire bottom tree to be about something i know some people want people to use more, Numbers are preliminary.

Source to the Sd.Kfz 250/9
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111226134138/companyofheroesblitzkriegmod/de/images/2/22/2509kwk.jpg

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vch54I5P_hCHijIbn2hwALjaIGOMDdxB0Cs6Y10RWRk/pubhtml

Its not entirely infantry focused now, But i think the traditional infantry doctrine being 1 offensive tree 1 defensive and 1 AT is dull and overdone, This is still a draft so i will be changing it as i come up with different ideas.

[Korpisolttu]

I've massively reworked my jaeger doctrine, Its quite a bit different and i've refocused the entire bottom tree to be about something i know some people want people to use more, Numbers are preliminary.

Source to the Sd.Kfz 250/9
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111226134138/companyofheroesblitzkriegmod/de/images/2/22/2509kwk.jpg

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vch54I5P_hCHijIbn2hwALjaIGOMDdxB0Cs6Y10RWRk/pubhtml

Its not entirely infantry focused now, But i think the traditional infantry doctrine being 1 offensive tree 1 defensive and 1 AT is dull and overdone, This is still a draft so i will be changing it as i come up with different ideas.

Wow, this one is really interesting! Something different at least. I like the idea of adding that new unit also.

[AlphaTIG]

Make this Jaeger droctrine happen. +1