Making Tank Crews

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[Scotzmen]

Also, you are all forgetting that the TANK CREW gains the vetrency. If you scuttle that super Pershing YOU WILL NOT GET IT BACK. It's gone, dead, finito! Even if you escape the battle with the tank crew, you still loose the super Pershing. Makes sense right? You don't exit the tank off the map, you don't get it back. It's lost or destroyed. But you can still use the veteran crew in other tanks. This is about making it easier to keep vetted vehicles around. So if you loose limited vehicles, they will be forever lost until you get your hands on a new one.

 You could in theory vet tank crews up on light vehicles and then swap them to a heavy. But I could work around that with unit hold types. So different tank crews for different tanks.

[tank130]

Hang on a minute. You lot would prefer having unit with litrelly limitless amount of repairs over having something you can defeat but not kill the vet?

You would prefer a super Pershing to have nearly limitless repairs from engineers in one game. RATHER than having something able to retain it's vetrency?

Is that what you guys are saying?

You could litrelly pile all your munitions into keeping a powerful unit on the field for most of the game with just buying repair after repair on engineers in the launcher.

In all honesty, I'd prefer having it vet retained rather than having to face it again and again and again. Because I don't really give a fuck about unit vetrency or the act of killing someone else's vet.

Yup...... because if they have invested all of their munis into that one unit, they have almost nothing to support it. In addition to that, all I have to do is kill their repair squads and that's the end of the repairs.

[Scotzmen]

Also, refer to my second post above yours.

[Tachibana]

Yup...... because if they have invested all of their munis into that one unit, they have almost nothing to support it. In addition to that, all I have to do is kill their repair squads and that's the end of the repairs.

Looking at it the wrong way. For example, with a tiger, i can run a p4, an ost and a flakpanzer all with double repairs. What if, instead of using those munis on the minor tanks, i could spend THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF MUNITIONS, but put all the repairs on a tiger.

[nikomas]

Looking at it the wrong way. For example, with a tiger, i can run a p4, an ost and a flakpanzer all with double repairs. What if, instead of using those munis on the minor tanks, i could spend THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF MUNITIONS, but put all the repairs on a tiger.

Yup. Moving repairs to that less armor and spending more fuel on say, artillery, becomes a much better option.

A lot of players do not lose all their armor in fights, they run out of repairs and have to pull them off for fresh tanks. They theoretically would not need more than a pair of tanks for a whole fight if they could keep them in action as long as repairs last.

I fear this will greatly incentivize keeping 1 heavy tank on the field for the whole game and using the rest of the fuel for LV/M10 suicide rushing*, I don't see how that's a good thing.


*In non-armor companies, you can't really expect to get to use your M10/LV repairs when hunting down enemy armor, this fits a flexible repair system much better.

[aeroblade56]

m10s always die.

[GrayWolf]

Also, you are all forgetting that the TANK CREW gains the vetrency. If you scuttle that super Pershing YOU WILL NOT GET IT BACK. It's gone, dead, finito! Even if you escape the battle with the tank crew, you still loose the super Pershing. Makes sense right? You don't exit the tank off the map, you don't get it back. It's lost or destroyed. But you can still use the veteran crew in other tanks. This is about making it easier to keep vetted vehicles around. So if you loose limited vehicles, they will be forever lost until you get your hands on a new one.

 You could in theory vet tank crews up on light vehicles and then swap them to a heavy. But I could work around that with unit hold types. So different tank crews for different tanks.

Doesn't matter. That won't work on units you have anyway : normal and doctrinal. When it comes to reward units, you just wait until you have another one and place the vet experience anyway. When it comes to easy to gain vet units (common-rare), it's not that a big problem. KT is not even a reward unit and having vet on it is pretty badass. think about it again.



Okay and when it comes to engies. All of you have a good point with repairing just one unit. How about making a limit to it? Like you can spend only 200 muni on a tank or sth?
Actually wear&tear of OMG works pretty well. Like tank130 said, you just have to kill engieneers and that's the end of story. So even if you want to spend all your muni on reping just one tank it's hard if you don't have +6 engies or you sit on a respawn (which takes a lot of time and pop).

[tank130]

But you can still use the veteran crew in other tanks. This is about making it easier to keep vetted vehicles around. So if you loose limited vehicles, they will be forever lost until you get your hands on a new one.

I completely missed this part and this greatly concerns me even further.
If this is correct, then I can run around sniping infantry with my P4 earning some easy vet while everyone pretty much ignores it because it is a low risk unit. End of the game I scuttle the P4 and put those nicely vetted up tank squad into my KT for the next game.

There are so many ways to exploit these tank crews. This is just such a wrong approach to EiR that I am getting really frustrated with the insistence to move head with it.

Meanwhile we have people QQ about infinite repairs when the solution to that is simply killing a weak engie squad. These cost resources and pop, how the hell are you going to spam those while also keeping your super heavy on the field? Even if you could, we could simply create a new unit specifically for repairs and change it's resource and pop cost to control it.

But really, does it take that much skill to find a way to kill engies doing repairs? Currently to kill a repairing tank you need an AT source and a reasonable amount of time. To kill that repairing Engie you could practically just use a jeep.
 

[GrayWolf]

Even if you make it mediums -> mediums and heavies -> heavies only it's gonna be broken. Tiger ace -> KT or KT -> Tiger ace whatever.

Doesn't it break the whole of idea of persistency. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRvlU9lNUTI (RIP in peperroni old doctrines ;-;) "Can you train your own Tiger ace?"... "Yes with my KT", just like that lol. :p

[Tachibana]

Welp, this discussion is going nowhere. What if we jusr made it so repair kits can be canceled. Would everyone be alright with that?

[Scotzmen]

I completely missed this part and this greatly concerns me even further.
If this is correct, then I can run around sniping infantry with my P4 earning some easy vet while everyone pretty much ignores it because it is a low risk unit. End of the game I scuttle the P4 and put those nicely vetted up tank squad into my KT for the next game.

There are so many ways to exploit these tank crews. This is just such a wrong approach to EiR that I am getting really frustrated with the insistence to move head with it.

Meanwhile we have people QQ about infinite repairs when the solution to that is simply killing a weak engie squad. These cost resources and pop, how the hell are you going to spam those while also keeping your super heavy on the field? Even if you could, we could simply create a new unit specifically for repairs and change it's resource and pop cost to control it.

But really, does it take that much skill to find a way to kill engies doing repairs? Currently to kill a repairing tank you need an AT source and a reasonable amount of time. To kill that repairing Engie you could practically just use a jeep.
 

Can be rectified by making tank crews specific to class of tank. That's an easy fix.

If it's so easy to kill that engineer squad with a jeep, all I'd have to do is call on 10 jeeps kill engies, then no repairs for rest of game. Call more jeeps and rinse and repeat. I have effectively nutralized the capability to let the other player do anything with there tanks by a good margin. And also have them potentially waste so many munitions. At very little cost to myself. If anything this would handicap vehicles even more. Hell, if this happened, I'd be define try doing what I just said I'd do. And never worry about tanks ever again

On a side note, making it so munitions drain away when you repair is not possible. As far as I'm aware. Unless scar code is done. You can even exploit it by not fully repairing your tank and you get all spent munitions back.

[tank130]

f it's so easy to kill that engineer squad with a jeep, all I'd have to do is call on 10 jeeps kill engies, then no repairs for rest of game. Call more jeeps and rinse and repeat.

Nothing stopping you from doing that except what do you do with all those jeeps after.
Keep in mind you still have to damage the tank to the point it needs a repair, so I don't know if building a jeep spam company is going to help you int he long run.

Repair engies means you need tanks and repair units and your enemy needs something to damage the tank and something to kill the repair units.
Both of these scenarios requires combined arms. Something that we have always promoted as good game play.

[Scotzmen]

Well, what do people do with jeeps and bikes after they hunt down a sniper?

I just don't see how moving repair kits from the tank to the engineers is in anyway effective? Then you have a tank and a squad suckling up population and doing... nothing. But at a greater cost of population/manpower etc.

The only thing you gain I the potential to pretty much repair your tank forever. God forbid if it's a super Pershing or a tiger ace. You think they are a problem now? With the ability to repair it over and over again is insane.

Could you explain how this new repair system would work in detail, as It may not actually work the way I'm thinking it would work. You might have a completely different idea of how it works.

[tank130]

Well, what do people do with jeeps and bikes after they hunt down a sniper?

I just don't see how moving repair kits from the tank to the engineers is in anyway effective? Then you have a tank and a squad suckling up population and doing... nothing. But at a greater cost of population/manpower etc.

The only thing you gain I the potential to pretty much repair your tank forever. God forbid if it's a super Pershing or a tiger ace. You think they are a problem now? With the ability to repair it over and over again is insane.

Could you explain how this new repair system would work in detail, as It may not actually work the way I'm thinking it would work. You might have a completely different idea of how it works.

1.) New unit created - call it Vehicle tech ( VT ) or whatever
2.) VT purchases repair kits for munitions or fuel. I would think fuel as it increases the life span of the unit and keeps a lid on too many vehicles but that can be debated in balance.
      - 3 types of repair kits = Light, Medium, Heavy
      - If that causes a coding issue, then make them all light repairs and you have to use more depending on how much repair you need?
3.) Tanks loose ability to shoot or move when being repaired. Doc abilities could potentially change this.
4.) Repair speed could be increased with VT Vet.
5.) I don't think a VT should be able to cap, but that can be argued in balance.
6.) VT with the same stats as Minesweeper.
7.) If repair units become an uncontrollable spam problem, we simply hard cap it. Don't start QQ about Hardcap, with out a pool limit i is pretty much the only option.
8.) Player trades available on field pop for increased number of available repairs.

That's it. If a player is willing to sink all of their resources into VT's loaded with repair kits and nothing else, then you could potentially be faced with "never ending repairs". You would also be facing a player with nothing but a couple of tanks and endless VT that can be killed with a sneeze. Hardly a viable company.

OR:

We go with tank crews that have zero benefit to any other vehicles in the game except tanks and do not promote combined arms.

Questions about Tank Crews:

1.) How survivable would the tank crew be and at what speed would they retreat?
2.) Can a tank crew be swapped from one tank to another and how would that be handled in the launcher?
3.) Can the tank still have repairs and retreatable tank crews?
4.) Do you think having vet 5 super heavies that essentially can never be killed as long as you retreat is good for overall game play?

Killing off a vet 5 infantry unit takes a disproportionate amount of resources compared to a Vet 5 super heavy. How do you propose to make that balanced?

[Tachibana]

All this thread has done is convince me that the current repair kits are fine >.>

People dislike repair kits due to early engine damage, fine, make the broken down repair kits more common(mid t4 tankhunters). Tank hunters can keep the mobile repairs to keep it unique.

People dislike repair kits since they make tanks vulnerable and want tank crews instead, just make repair kits cancellable. You lose the rest of the repair and the munitions but get your tank back in action.

Furthermore, since you can cancel the repair, there is no need for extra repair units/engies.

[Scotzmen]

We could make a unit that litrelly just spot fixed criticals. Shit like weapons destroyed, immobilized, engine damage for a cost of munitions. Wether it could be uses or just a rechargeable ability, it would probably improve the situation.

I could make crews for every vehicle and tank you can imagine. From bren carriers to super Pershing.  Anything that had wheels or tracks can have vehicle crews

The most I can do, is make tank crews specific to classes or even specific vehicles themselves. 
So light tank crews, mediums, heavies, super heavies etc. Or even to specific vehicles. But that would really load up the unit pool in the launcher. Basically, vehicles would become like transports in the launcher. Select the tank, right click the squad. If the unit has the same load type as the vehicle,  the vehicle will spawn with the squad. Should you try put a light tank crew in a heavy tank, your going to have an unusable heavy tank.

Aye, we could. But things like double repairs would probably have to go.

Obviously not, but the drop rate of super heavies is pretty low, for the reason that they are that powerful. If they loose the tank,,they loose the tank. The crew Is now useless until they get themselves another super heavy. Now that I think about it. Super heavy vehicles should be exclusive to the super heavy. So a different crew for a different super heavy to stop that kind of stuff actually.

I suggest we test it out for a week on only medium tanks (Cromwell,  Sherman,  P4, P4 ist.) And we see how it goes. Should it prove to be problematic or abuseable it can be pulled and either scrapped or fixed.  We could also test your idea out for a week, see how it goes too. We can theory craft all we like really, but testing is best.

[GORKHALI]

I hate to get into balance discussion coz i am not good at it, why don't u guys give the repair kit to the crew itself same as in coh 2 instead, when repairy units bail out and start repair.

[Mister Schmidt]

Gork absolutely just had the best idea

[tank130]

I hate to get into balance discussion coz i am not good at it, why don't u guys give the repair kit to the crew itself same as in coh 2 instead, when repairy units bail out and start repair.

This is a pretty good idea to be honest.
Is there any way to limit the repairs? This truly would be unlimited repairs with no resource cost - or could it have a resource cost?

Are you suggesting the unit could do it's own repairs and be able to scuttle / treat? That seems pretty powerful.

My concern with this whole tank crew things is the game just becomes world of Tanks with a shit ton of vetted tanks running around.

[Scotzmen]

Repairs currently are limited by slot_items.

So we could limit it.