General mando balance thread.

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[GrayWolf]

STEN MANDOS

BUFF
Sprint is 2 seconds only. It's a bit... useless for now. I would give rather 5 or 4 at least.
NERF
Also 0.6 less received suppression on enemy territory is way too much, especially because they have suppression break already (not to speak about mando LT's charge). I would rather change it to 0.7 on enemy and 0.85 normally.

TALLBOY

BUFF
Tallboy bomb is much more easier to avoid, because you see the plane icon on the minimap. Many tallboy users would be thankful if the icon was removed.

TETRARCH

NERF
Not in-game, but in launcher. Tetrarch is an annoying bitch, but there problem doesn't lie in it's stats but cost. I feel like the tet compared to hotchkiss is far better, yet it is cheaper and easier to spam. I suggest to up the fuel cost to 100 for upgun and to 70 for the standard one. Also, standard one shouldn't cost 6 pop. It's way too low, since the only difference is the penetration bonus (from what I've been told) and the lower pop makes in even more spamable.


I don't want to talk about doctrines, because they will be changed in a future. That's all I wanted to say for now.
If you feel like anything else need buff/nerf post it here.

And please... behave.

[koimn6]

 Mando sten  : 2 sec sprint is cool,  better give them more less suppress and dmg while use

Tallboy : i ask bout this before but they don't wanna change this,  and plane is not important actually,
cus that annoying sound  already make player move,

tet :  tet is shit without 15% less acc,
and with dat Hp wnd armour they don't need nerf in cost,  and tet/hotchkiss must not compared,
if they have more Hp, it could be acceptable

better talk about hotchkiss with apcr or luffs -20% less acc with spam

[Scotzmen]

The 2 second sprint was built for commandos to close that gap where everything else shredded them before they did damage.

It is litrelly doing what it is meant to be doing. Being able to Assualt with stens and not take so much punishment in return. Stens are amazing up close, but only up close. Hence the sprint. Extend it and it may as well be fireup.

[GrayWolf]

better talk about hotchkiss with apcr or luffs -20% less acc with spam

Yet, it is still easier to hit luft -20% less acc than -15% on tet. Also, you can go for top if you need better DPS (tet), but tet doesn't need it like hotchkiss. Also tet has better alpha damage and spammed is much more dangerous, especially because axis doesn't have that much of accuracy I belive compared to allies (And tet is still harder to hit by it's stats anyway). Stupid rushes in with hotchkisses? Nope. Stupid rushes with tets? Why not. Shrecks will miss 3 times in a row and I don't want to talk about tanks lol.

Tet is at least as good as hotchkiss, so it should have at lesat the same price.



About sprint. You can try it. 2 seconds is way too short. Giving buffs while sprinting is a bad idea, since it's 2 seconds only. The sprint should be at least 4 seconds or it doesn't have any sense at all. 2 seconds doesn't get you close enough anyway. I belive you're 5 meters closer at max with this sprint, than without it.


It would be nice if someone could post some stats, although I'm 99% sure I'm right with the accuracy thingy.

[nikomas]

The 2 second sprint was built for commandos to close that gap where everything else shredded them before they did damage.

It is litrelly doing what it is meant to be doing. Being able to Assualt with stens and not take so much punishment in return. Stens are amazing up close, but only up close. Hence the sprint. Extend it and it may as well be fireup.

To be honest, now that cloak-smoke is back at vet 1 I don't see the point of that as it already did that but better.

[GrayWolf]

3m/s is standard movement speed and 4m/s is sprinting speed, so 2m closer.

That's......... wow. I would post a meme to describe my amusement, but unfortunetly I can't. I don't know if that can be any difference at all. 2 meters is like... No difference at all.

[GrayWolf]

Maybe I'm just the only person who thinks it's bad then.

Anyway I would like to see tet to hotchkiss comparision by all the stats (vanilla unit). If someone can do it, I would be thankful.

[GrayWolf]

So basicly, when it comes to mag damage, it's pretty much the same (vehicles). Tet has better damage on long, but worse on mid-long (when it comes to DPS, hotch is better). I don't really wanna look at DPS, but on mag, simply because while playing LVs, you use hit&run tactic most of the time.

Tet doesn't care if infantry/tank is moving or not, lol. Penetration level is too damn high compared to hotch and both are supposed to fight tanks (upgun).

Tet has phase armor and hotch doesn't (not sure about that  ).

The only good thing about upgun hotch is 50 more health, but it's pretty much nothing since tet is much more harder to hit.


And yes, Alpha I meant you, not because you're the only one who understand stats, but the only one who will do this shit for community. Thanks.
If you could only add received accuracy... Please

[aeroblade56]

So basicly, when it comes to mag damage, it's pretty much the same (vehicles). Tet has better damage on long, but worse on mid-long (when it comes to DPS, hotch is better). I don't really wanna look at DPS, but on mag, simply because while playing LVs, you use hit&run tactic most of the time.

Tet doesn't care if infantry/tank is moving or not, lol. Penetration level is too damn high compared to hotch and both are supposed to fight tanks (upgun).

Tet has phase armor and hotch doesn't (not sure about that  ).

The only good thing about upgun hotch is 50 more health, but it's pretty much nothing since tet is much more harder to hit.


And yes, Alpha I meant you, not because you're the only one who understand stats, but the only one who will do this shit for community. Thanks.
If you could only add received accuracy... Please

The hotch has phase armor.

The turret rotation is also complete nonsense on the tet.

You say dps doesn't really matter but it does. 2hotch will do nearly the same as 3 tets.

 I say remove the 8 speed to 6 and remove the Sherman smoke but give it +1to canister smoke. That way it's still in line with other lv hunters but it still maintains a smoke ability.

 

[GrayWolf]

'kay.

Still I belive tet is far better, since the damage difference isn't that high and the pentration is better anyway (for most the targets). When it comes to mobility, tet is also better and it's received accuracy (yes yes, it's tanks accuracy against it) makes it really really good especially against tanks (which it has to face and kill). Also axis infantry has less proper handheld AT and by that I mean "shreks are shit against tet".

Also. The range. I was kitting P4 once with tet. The range difference was pretty small, but it was enough to kite it. I loled so hard that LV has more range than P4 (hey metz :"D).


But hey. There is also one more super-duper annoying thing. Glider deployment. Whenever you want to move back with your tanks back, they're getting killed with no fucks given. 3 tets behind you out of nowhere. This is especially annoying when your enemy run middle t4 (that's what you do if you go for tets). I mean 75% less calling time, really?


Also not being able to crush walls isn't that a big deal. You can just shoot them if you need and you don't often need to.

[aeroblade56]

'kay.

Still I belive tet is far better, since the damage difference isn't that high and the pentration is better anyway (for most the targets). When it comes to mobility, tet is also better and it's received accuracy (yes yes, it's tanks accuracy against it) makes it really really good especially against tanks (which it has to face and kill). Also axis infantry has less proper handheld AT and by that I mean "shreks are shit against tet".

Also. The range. I was kitting P4 once with tet. The range difference was pretty small, but it was enough to kite it. I loled so hard that LV has more range than P4 (hey metz :"D).


But hey. There is also one more super-duper annoying thing. Glider deployment. Whenever you want to move back with your tanks back, they're getting killed with no fucks given. 3 tets behind you out of nowhere. This is especially annoying when your enemy run middle t4 (that's what you do if you go for tets). I mean 75% less calling time, really?


Also not being able to crush walls isn't that a big deal. You can just shoot them if you need and you don't often need to.

Jesus you are just trying to find something wrong with commandos. Which is the shitiest doctrine in the game.

Yes they have -75 deployment by glider. man good thing I pay a t4 and a t2 for my near hotchkiss equivalent unit.

The stuff is going to be changed anyway so there is probably little point in discussing a unit which is going to lose whatever doctrine buffs it gets.

[koimn6]

even alpha saying with reason why, but u can't refute it. and just saying bout what u wanna talk.

2 tet pop is 16, and 3 tet is 24 already over P4 pop. and there is other things to beat tetrach.
ostwind(same kind of aa), boys at, pak, and hotchkiss

'kay.
But hey. There is also one more super-duper annoying thing. Glider deployment. Whenever you want to move back with your tanks back, they're getting killed with no fucks given. 3 tets behind you out of nowhere. This is especially annoying when your enemy run middle t4 (that's what you do if you go for tets). I mean 75% less calling time, really?

LIGHTNING WAR WITH ALL UNIT -75% CALL IN TIMER. REALLY?

hope u notice, basic commando doctrine still need buff.
and we can't discuss about next big patch, cus we have to know what's gonna happend first.

[AlphaTIG]

the only thing i see in this thread is a tet sapmming mando fanboy and a tet spamming mando hater.

you are running in circles guys.

just increase fuel cost and lower mp cost on tet.

problem solved.

gn8

[koimn6]

the only thing i see in this thread is a tet sapmming mando fanboy and a tet spamming mando hater.

you are running in circles guys.

just increase fuel cost and lower mp cost on tet.

problem solved.

gn8

spamming tet? lol

[jackmccrack]

the only thing i see in this thread is a tet sapmming mando fanboy and a tet spamming mando hater.

you are running in circles guys.

just increase fuel cost and lower mp cost on tet.

problem solved.

gn8

+1

[Mister Schmidt]

On a serious note, chill out.

I keep saying to stop arguing semantics and you guys don't listen. Balance is where you leave your epeen aside.

Cold hard facts is all that is wanted

[GrayWolf]

Cold hard facts is all that is wanted

Isn't Alpha and me are using stats (which I don't really understand 100%), but at least I'm trying to. Okay, okay, Alpha is providing stats and I'm just trying to sound like a person who understand everything.

Also 2 other peeps agreed about the fuel increase, so it shouldn't be that baseless. I'm trying to be a good boy, 'kay?


To Kyun and Bolt. Lightning war doesn't make your units deploy from gliders. What's more WH doesn't have hotchkiss, but puma, which is slightly different from those two, by the fact it can also fight infantry effectively.

And to Alpha. That's the deal. I know each side has different things to fight both of the units and that's one of my points. You can also nerf tet by making some weapons better against him. For example RRs and zooks are better than shrecks . You have 2 of them, so accuracy should be better. Even if one misses, the other has a chance to hit. I use that argument since we know tet is really hard to hit and 1 shreck cost 110-120 muni and when it keeps missing all the time, it's simply useless. It's hard to balance that, but that's one of the reasons why it's so overperforming. I would like to say: "If there's a problem you cannot solve, you can't just ignore it and wait if it just fixes itself", but I feel like you already know it. I just wanted to point out that "problem".

And here's my solution. If nothing can be done with stats itself, it should be a good idea to increase the price. Following the new ideology of EiR, if something is overperforming, it might be a good idea to change the price, not the stats (like with the doctrines. The better ones cost more).


That's all I ask. If someone isn't spamming them, it shouldn't affect his/her company build too much. I know what I'm saying, I use 16 tets in my company and it's freaking retarded. I literally don't have to use any other AT. Let tet be as it is, just punish the spam companies. I don't have any grudge to any of you. I don't hate any player or company (I play all factions and doctrines). I might find some of you... fucking annoying, but it doesn't matter in balance forums. If I feel something is OP/UP, first I ask people around - players. If more than 50% agree, I post it on the forums. I was asking people about tetrarch and mandos for about a month and that's the result of most of the conversations I had. That's how I do things.

Remember that all the changes can be reversed any second if the patch was bad. And if there's a new doc coming, it might be a good idea to change the unit now and change it back when the new doc is back (if that was wrong).

[aeroblade56]

Isn't Alpha and me are using stats (which I don't really understand 100%), but at least I'm trying to. Okay, okay, Alpha is providing stats and I'm just trying to sound like a person who understand everything.

Also 2 other peeps agreed about the fuel increase, so it shouldn't be that baseless. I'm trying to be a good boy, 'kay?


To Kyun and Bolt. Lightning war doesn't make your units deploy from gliders. What's more WH doesn't have hotchkiss, but puma, which is slightly different from those two, by the fact it can also fight infantry effectively.

And to Alpha. That's the deal. I know each side has different things to fight both of the units and that's one of my points. You can also nerf tet by making some weapons better against him. For example RRs and zooks are better than shrecks . You have 2 of them, so accuracy should be better. Even if one misses, the other has a chance to hit. I use that argument since we know tet is really hard to hit and 1 shreck cost 110-120 muni and when it keeps missing all the time, it's simply useless. It's hard to balance that, but that's one of the reasons why it's so overperforming. I would like to say: "If there's a problem you cannot solve, you can't just ignore it and wait if it just fixes itself", but I feel like you already know it. I just wanted to point out that "problem".

And here's my solution. If nothing can be done with stats itself, it should be a good idea to increase the price. Following the new ideology of EiR, if something is overperforming, it might be a good idea to change the price, not the stats (like with the doctrines. The better ones cost more).


That's all I ask. If someone isn't spamming them, it shouldn't affect his/her company build too much. I know what I'm saying, I use 16 tets in my company and it's freaking retarded. I literally don't have to use any other AT. Let tet be as it is, just punish the spam companies. I don't have any grudge to any of you. I don't hate any player or company (I play all factions and doctrines). I might find some of you... fucking annoying, but it doesn't matter in balance forums. If I feel something is OP/UP, first I ask people around - players. If more than 50% agree, I post it on the forums. I was asking people about tetrarch and mandos for about a month and that's the result of most of the conversations I had. That's how I do things.

Remember that all the changes can be reversed any second if the patch was bad. And if there's a new doc coming, it might be a good idea to change the unit now and change it back when the new doc is back (if that was wrong).

Why are u comparing the tet to a wehr unit.

First you compared it to a hotchkiss and basically got told you were wrong.

Now you are comparing it to a puma which is on a different level to the tet for starters the upgun puma is actually good at killing infantry. It's  gun if I remember does slightly more damage than the tet. I'm pretty sure a puma will kill a tet 1v1 pretty well. And has some good splash.

[GrayWolf]

Why are u comparing the tet to a wehr unit.

First you compared it to a hotchkiss and basically got told you were wrong.

Now you are comparing it to a puma which is on a different level to the tet for starters the upgun puma is actually good at killing infantry. It's  gun if I remember does slightly more damage than the tet. I'm pretty sure a puma will kill a tet 1v1 pretty well. And has some good splash.

Read again and think. I don't even want to explain again, just read... I think you're trolling here, but anyway:

LIGHTNING WAR WITH ALL UNIT -75% CALL IN TIMER. REALLY?

So first KYUN compared mid t4 (mando) to top t4 of blitz. I just said it's stupid because it's not hotchkiss, but puma, and we're comparing Tet to hotchkiss in the first place. All I wanted to point out is that Blitz is for WH and WH doesn't have hochkiss, 'kay? I also said:

To Kyun and Bolt. Lightning war doesn't make your units deploy from gliders. What's more WH doesn't have hotchkiss, but puma, which is slightly different from those two, by the fact it can also fight infantry effectively.


but puma, which is slightly different from those two, by the fact it can also fight infantry effectively.

Isn't it something you just said?

upgun puma is actually good at killing infantry.

Guys... please. Don't shitstorm this thread with your excuses not to read the posts properly. I know they're long and boring, but c'mon it's not "The real funny threat of Bear..", but balance forums. lol

[GrayWolf]

To prevent shitstorming I make few arguments of mine in a list. If you want to argue, please argue about them. Quote each of them and tell me what's wrong with it. Thanks.

- Tetrarch "received accuracy" is way too good
- Glider deployment and 8 speed make this unit a perfect vet hunter. It can also force tank to retreat while repairing easily.
- Tetrarch gun has few "disturbing" things about itself. It has better range than P4 and zero aimtime (can fire and run away without enemy tank shooting at). All you need is just some micro, becasue tet already has a lot of speed and accel/deccel.