Sturmpanzers + AVREs

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[TheVolskinator]

So, I just wanted to make a short post; I'm sick of watching Sturmpanzers drive around as guaranteed wiping machines. They're silly effective, and anyone attempting to argue to the contrary had better put forth some damn good evidence. My proposal, following the stats I'll lay out, is to nerf the SPanzer, but as the AVRE is identical in a few ways, for the sake of fairness, it should get the nerf bat as well.

Quick stats; the AVRE and SPanzer both have:

-700 HP

-A 35-range cannon that deals 500 damage, with an AoE of 10 (for reference, the Tiger's AoE is 5.3), with full damage being dealt up to 2m from the shell's landing point, and the damage tapering off to 0.2 (100 damage) at ?5m and off to 0.1 (50) from there.

-Good armor types (tp_churchill for the AVRE, and tp_axis_stug for the SPanzer).

The issue comes in with vehicle speed; the AVRE moves at a paltry 3.75 m/s, while the SPanzer moves at 5 m/s (the same as a P IV, and only .2 slower than a Sherman or Cromwell). On top of this, the large health pool and good armor types *should* mean that both units are good at wading through AT fire to deliver their miniature nukes on-target. This isn't the case, however, as the AVRE will be guaranteed to eat 2-3 Pak shells, not to mention other AT weapons, before it fires its shell. You ALWAYS end up trading HP for a chance to wipe. With the Sturmpanzer, you can take one shell, fire your shot off, and then back out of range, bearing in mind that StuG armor is pretty good at bouncing non-AP shell ATG shots at mid/long range. Even if it was moving before the AVRE/SPanzer made it into firing range, an ATG will get nuked before it can escape simply because if the 10 m splash damage range. Even poorly aimed shots will end up wiping the crew at the very least, and usually blow up the gun as well.

Compounding the issue is the silly 45 s cooldown on the firing ability.

My proposal is thus:
-Reduce the AoE on the AVRE/SPanzer weapon to 6 (a reduction of 4m of AoE).
-Reduce the speed of the Sturmpanzer to 4, or 4.25.
-Change the armor type of the Sturmpanzer to Pz IV armor.
-Increase the cooldown of the firing ability (both units) to 75 seconds (1 minute, 15 seconds).

Or any combination of the above.

[GrayWolf]

Stupa is faster, not only because it's reward unit, but because AVRE has turret. Also AVRE can buy mineplow, so it can go full on the ATG without thinking about mines. (AVRE is also buffed with HP/speed/accel depending on t4).

Imo AVRE and STUPA are fine. They wipe blobs, but cannot stand any kind of AT while reloading. If you miss, you're fucked. They also cost 10 pop - think about them as arty with low cooldown.


Best counter to these are not blobing and using ATG on long range. Even if they come closer, the trade should be fine + ATG is still recrewable.

[Tachibana]

There is no reason for the sturm to be moving at p4 speed, tbh. Using mines as an excuse to give the sturm more speed also makes no sense. Thats like saying that it will run too fast to run over a mine.

Also, the AVRE might have a turret, but it also cost 85 fuel extra.

The reward unit argument is fairly moot as well at this point. This round of the warmap has been going on for ages and many players have reward units stocked up to the point that they can be core parts of their companies.

I would not do all those changes at once, one at a time should be fine until a consensus is met. Would start with the speed nerf first, followed by cool down times if speed isn't enough(15 second increments though, not 30). Toss up after that if further is needed.

[AlphaTIG]

ok first of all, volsky you are almost only playing allies. nothing wrong with that, just wanted to point that out.

Your nerfing proposal for these two tanks weill most likely make them pretty useless and or just not worth their cost.

These tanks have a big offensive potential but cant really defend themselfs, the stupa relies on its speed and the avre on its armor to survive between shots. and even with a shell loaded the cant defen themselves against tanks and at vehicles at all.

Reducing the Aoe will make the shots too easy to dodge, experienced players can already dodge them how they are now.

reducing the speed of the stupa will make escaping from vehicles impossible and fuckin ab fireup aholes (wich would really deserve a nerve) would be fast enough to catch up with it which is ridonculus.
it would also make it way too hard to reposition the tank quickly when necessary because of the lack of a turret.

the armor on the stupa is just fine, since you only have to flank it with infantry (or just rush it with a fuckin ab rr blob) or attack it with tanks or even light vehicles like the m8. The armor on the avre however can only be penetrated reliably by heavy tanks and tankdestroyers, which is fine since its lack of speed.

and almost doubeling the cooldown of the only weapon on the tank, i dont even know what to say... a wespe would be more usefull since it would fire more shots/min and has less pop... and wespes are shit.

I have used the stupa a lot lately and i can ensure you that the base stats are totally fine. (and yes i did 60 inf kills with 2 stupas in one match but other people do that with one sniper. my enemys made that possible, not the stupa itself | i also lost about 12 of them in 3 days because they are really not that easy to defend.)
however the vet2 and vet3 bonus make it ridiculus.
while vet reduces the cooldown to 30s wich is still ok vet 3 reduces it to 15s and give additional 5 range. (hope thats still up to date, cant trust the laucher)

i'd propose to nerf the vet bonus instead of the base stats.
no more bonus on the weapon, only defesive and speed bonuses. (nothing too strong, just the standart stuff which you can find on any other tank.)

[aeroblade56]

These tanks have a big offensive potential but cant really defend themselfs, the stupa relies on its speed and the avre on its armor to survive between shots. and even with a shell loaded the cant defen themselves against tanks and at vehicles at all.

Reducing the Aoe will make the shots too easy to dodge, experienced players can already dodge them how they are now.

reducing the speed of the stupa will make escaping from vehicles impossible and fuckin ab fireup aholes (wich would really deserve a nerve) would be fast enough to catch up with it which is ridonculus.
it would also make it way too hard to reposition the tank quickly when necessary because of the lack of a turret.

the armor on the stupa is just fine, since you only have to flank it with infantry (or just rush it with a fuckin ab rr blob) or attack it with tanks or even light vehicles like the m8. The armor on the avre however can only be penetrated reliably by heavy tanks and tankdestroyers, which is fine since its lack of speed.

and almost doubeling the cooldown of the only weapon on the tank, i dont even know what to say... a wespe would be more usefull since it would fire more shots/min and has less pop... and wespes are shit.

I have used the stupa a lot lately and i can ensure you that the base stats are totally fine. (and yes i did 60 inf kills with 2 stupas in one match but other people do that with one sniper. my enemys made that possible, not the stupa itself | i also lost about 12 of them in 3 days because they are really not that easy to defend.)
however the vet2 and vet3 bonus make it ridiculus.
while vet reduces the cooldown to 30s wich is still ok vet 3 reduces it to 15s and give additional 5 range. (hope thats still up to date, cant trust the laucher)

i'd propose to nerf the vet bonus instead of the base stats.
no more bonus on the weapon, only defesive and speed bonuses. (nothing too strong, just the standart stuff which you can find on any other tank.)

ok first of all, volsky you are almost only playing allies. nothing wrong with that, just wanted to point that out.

No one cares no one asked. you play mostly axis its not relevant.

These tanks have a big offensive potential but cant really defend themselfs, the stupa relies on its speed and the avre on its armor to survive between shots. and even with a shell loaded the cant defen themselves against tanks and at vehicles at all.

the armor they use is pretty close to the same. atgs will have around 50% chance to pen. piats and zooks have under 20% chance to pen frontally. schreks around 50%.

The speed is the big difference. 1.5 doesnt seem like much but its pretty big.

a tet has a max speed of 8. the m10 has a max speed of 6.8 so  1.2 deffirence between a m10 and a tet. to give you a idea of how effective that speed can be.

Top this off with the faster ROF of a Pak and the slow speed of AVRE and the avre i guarantee will have to take more shots per round fired.




 as for you saying it still gets vet bonuses.

i'd propose to nerf the vet bonus instead of the base stats.
no more bonus on the weapon, only defesive and speed bonuses. (nothing too strong, just the standart stuff which you can find on any other tank.)

AVRE:
- Remove vet cooldown timer bonuses.

- Sturmpanzer range buffs with veterancy removed.

The overall amount of kills isnt entirely the problem. if you can take out 3 atgs with 1 sturmpanzer or AVRE it has pretty much made up its cost. which is guaranteed. i should know i had a vet 5 AVRE with over 800XP.

i know how easy they are.

As for the lame ass arguements* it gets a turret and mineplow*.

Yes a sherman also gets a mineplow doesnt mean its better than a p4 ye wank.

Yes it doesnt have a turret. you caught me, to bad the turret is to slow to be worth a damn. just like the 105Cromwell.

[TheVolskinator]

Adding to what aero said, the AVRE only has a chassis rotation of 22 (iirc). The Stupa has a faster chassis rotation, so the net ability to get the gun pointed at a target in a given amount of time is nearly the same.

[aeroblade56]

Adding to what aero said, the AVRE only has a chassis rotation of 22 (iirc). The Stupa has a faster chassis rotation, so the net ability to get the gun pointed at a target in a given amount of time is nearly the same.

22 avre

think the stupa has 30

and yhe king tiger has 27.

[GrayWolf]

As for the lame ass arguements* it gets a turret and mineplow*.
Yes a sherman also gets a mineplow doesnt mean its better than a p4 ye wank.

The deal with plow is that, it's passive and doesn't slow you down when using, so that's totally different from the sherman crab.

[AlphaTIG]

The deal with plow is that, it's passive and doesn't slow you down when using, so that's totally different from the sherman crab.

that plow makes the avre unstopable if you dont have heavy tanks.
i think it should be move to black prince.

As bolt pointed out earlier today the range of stupa and avre is 42.5 which is indeed too high, since its bigger than the fov of atgs.

i think 35-38 would be better and make a big difference

[aeroblade56]

that plow makes the avre unstopable if you dont have heavy tanks.
i think it should be move to black prince.

As bolt pointed out earlier today the range of stupa and avre is 42.5 which is indeed too high, since its bigger than the fov of atgs.

i think 35-38 would be better and make a big difference

the tank moves at 3.75.

 if u can't escape a plow you should be ashamed.

[AlphaTIG]

the tank moves at 3.75.

 if u can't escape a plow you should be ashamed.

its more about mines.. :b

[EliteGren]

that plow makes the avre unstopable if you dont have heavy tanks.
i think it should be move to black prince.

As bolt pointed out earlier today the range of stupa and avre is 42.5 which is indeed too high, since its bigger than the fov of atgs.

i think 35-38 would be better and make a big difference

Commonwealth
AVRE range reduced to 35 (so niko will stop bugging me about it)


Wehrmacht
Sturmpanzer decreased to 35

[TheVolskinator]

Meingott EliteNub has returned to us!

Also I still say they're batshit silly units even with 35 range.

[aeroblade56]

Im going to assume that its a ability type deal then.

[aeroblade56]

Im going to assume that its a ability type deal then.

[TheVolskinator]

That may be the ability range, but the weapon won't fire until the Stupa/AVRE is within 35 m of its target.

[GrayWolf]

Stupa's range is 35. I don't really care how, but it is.

If you really really want to nerf sth, then nerf the speed by 0,5 (brumbaer) and when it comes to AVRE buff the turret rotation by 3 tbfh.

Like I said these units are glass cannons to infantry. If they miss, they're rather really hurt or dead, so they need constant care.

[Tachibana]