Underwhelming Doctrines and suggested changes

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[Mysthalin]

Hi All,

After discussing with Tank on Discord, I have decided to start a rolling document on underwhelming doctrine choices and what changes I would suggest. The suggestions are not for abilities that might be too powerful to be nerfed - I feel there are very few that are the case nowadays. The issue comes more from some abilities just having no real reason to ever be picked other than for filler or lack of knowledge of how the RGDs actually work. These sad, sad abilities need some love. They need some warmth. They need somebody to hold them as they cry all alone in the night and tell them "I care. We can make you better".

I have begun doing so on Google Drive, starting with the definite runt of the litter when it comes to doctrine choices that make you go . This has now been filled in.

The second one was RSE given that it's also Brits. Fewer things to change, but one ability in particular is just so worthless it could not be ignored for it's uselesness.

All brits/All US commented on.

Wehrmacht now fully commented on.

PE now also commented on.

Link below:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DQ3byY4fjH9ughvo5mqmjwH-rtOgEDKrtJcKJIWeaE0/edit?usp=sharing

[Tachibana]

I think I'd rather see an extended sprint rather than -50% rec dmg/supp on Raid Ops. 15s feels awfully long for something that can be used at will and combined with infinite repairs.

+10 sight on mando jeeps for a pretty paltry 20mp also seems a but much. You start to rival 4 pop m20's for less mp, fuel and pop.

Don't think you need to replace focus brens, since they synergize so well with an extended sprint period from raid ops, can probably just tack in the rotation effects.

Airburst 95crom though is a big no-no though I think, unless you gave it the same absurd scatter the priest gets.

Everything else looks pretty cool.

[Mysthalin]

Re Raid-Ops.

It might "feel" awfully long, but realistically you're only getting 10s worth when you account for how long it takes the units to disembark and re-form. Compare with say, keep it moving, which allows you to use it on a multitude of units, in an aura, for 30s at a time, with no micro requirement or disembark time.

Doing it in front of anything with even "theoretical" splash (including a StuG or panther) is also an extreme liability as all the men unload on the exact same spot before they reform to move - I have sniped entire mando squads with Stugs getting off a bren before. It's really not a combat ability, and there is a reason it is never used - not even the 10s sprint version available in WM.

 Re Sight on Mando Jeep:

The mando jeep already costs 160 MP rather than the usual 110MP 10 FU. At 180 MP for the better sight range I don't personally think it would necessarily cause that much of a problem, but the cost could easily be negotiated further.

Re focus brens:

If we can just add the rotation boosts on top of the ability that works too - I just didn't want it to seem like the suggestions were overly generous.

Re frag rounds:

1. From the crom's perspective this is an extremely easy change. It involves changing 10 figures in the weapon file on the current frag rounds crom gun to reduce the splash ranges, change the splash modifiers, increase moving acc and reduce the pen at all ranges. Not really convoluted or hard to code.
2. The 95mm crom - a bit more difficult to code - volsky's domain really though. Giving it significant scatter seems fine to me - though for clarity I would envisage it to be a single, slow moving shell on a 180s cooldown.

Glad you like the rest.

[Bear]

I can not say anything about each doctrine so quickly, but I think the Knight's Cross Holders w. Oakleaves and Leutenant with Booming Voice and Westhammer of the Wehrmacht should be more like this:

https://youtu.be/IXWnz2rD1Hwt=11m40s

Unfortunately I can only post it in German but there are formulas to calculate the balance or imbalance:

https://www.wot-wmf.de/kampfkrafttheorie/

In a well-balanced team game, each player's win rate and loss rate should be around 50%. Especially when good and bad players play in mixed teams.
Maybe some Players have a win rate of 55% and others of 45%, but the difference should not be bigger.

As soon as a doctrine or unity is played very often, this is an indication of unbalance.

If individual players with specific units are better than the majority of players isn't this a indication of unbalance but rather a indication of an individual skill.
Nevertheless, even with such a player, the win rate and loss rate in a team game should be around 50%.

When a game is balanced you should stop changing the balance. If anything, then only very punctual.

[TheVolskinator]

CT:
Assault Formations - chassis rotation is not an applicable buff; it would require the creation of more units. Other than the Tets, Brit LVs get along just fine with their current turret rotation. It would amount to little more than a "win more" buff and would, imho, not be terribly useful, only getting you on target tenths of a second faster than normal. I find the toggle to be quite serviceable and believe that it should remain.

Enigma Decoded - there are 1001 ways that this could be easily abused to hell and back. I did not gloss over you cackling with glee with your undetectable PIAT squad on Discord; we don't need yet more camo abuse. At no speed loss? This reeks of Mando smoke-esque Cromwell escapes with Flank Speed active etc. I politely request that you formulate an alternate solution.

Fast Air - fine.

Motorized Infantry - very no. The last thing we need is some hilarious buff combo like 1.5 moving acc. from Assault Sections stacking with vet, your proposed buffs, and, say, a Mando LT. Stacked together you'd have BRENs milling about with 0.22813125 acc. at max range while moving--that blows standing accuracy out of the water. As for the call-in timer reduction, that is something I'll discuss with Lothen. At the end of the day, you still have elite infantry that can drop anywhere on the map after a paltry 15 s delay. Reducing the deployment of supporting non-Mando units by any significant degree could result in a massively overpowered juggernaut of a human/vehicular wave. I understand that this falls neatly within "Myst Doctrine" stratagem, but I do not see its implementation ending well.

Raid Operations - I can agree with the extension of the sprint duration; 15 s is the absolute upper limit, however. The LV buffs seem extreme to me; an MMG rocketing around 8.75 m/s or Mando Jeep going plaid at 9 m/s will be extremely easy to abuse with rolling suppression vehicle blobs combined with lolcrush Cromwells.

Recon Forces - you already have Triangulation in Mandos; we don't need to heap 75 m (85 m with vet) sight Mando Jeeps in on top of that. I understand that Mandos is supposed to be the Sam Fisher super sneaky trinocular strike from anywhere and fade into darkness doctrine, but this takes that idea and cranks it up to near-2009 territory. Mandos with 45 m sight is just...they already have a get-out-of-jail-free card on recharge, which renders them unkillable for a short duration after activation. I have already seen what PIAT blobs are capable of; PIAT blobs that self-spot (beyond 40 m, the limit of the current buff) are, in my opinion, utterly out of the question. It approaches the removal of counterplay.

RTR:
Desert Rats - 99% of players have expressed dissatisfaction with this ability; nobody wants to sit still and camo, it seems. Extending this buff to the Cromwell seems out of place and I think an absolute alternative of some kind should be sought. Veto.

Experimental Guns - not to bash the man, but this was 100% Bolt's idea. He wanted Cromwells to be able to take out enemy vehicles; the rest was just filler. I'll look at this in further detail sometime later this week, but seeing "passive 1.35 pen on Cromwell" and "passive damage on the Stuart" at a glance did not give me the warm fuzzies. Let us not return to the olden days of Stuarts melting upgun Hotches in slugging matches while losing less than 25% of their own HP. I do agree that the current implementation is hot garbage. My personal proposal would be an RR-like shell from the BP/FF; fires off one shell that deals 1.25 dmg. but has no accuracy tables (relies on scatter). Possibly something with a decently-large scatter angle and/but extended range?

Fragmentation Rounds - a simple AoE buff of some useful significance seems better to me. That toggle takes some of my outside the box ideas and places them neatly within a tank-kosher corner of said box. I do 100% agree on removing it from the FF and Stag.

AB:
Ballistic Caps - I don't think RRs need a buff of any kind. That doctrine unlock could be re-purposed in a more useful way for an entirely different upgrade or unit, but a velocity buff is, frankly, asinine and would go nearly unnoticed except by the most attuned members of the EiR playerbase. Airborne is a tricky doctrine to touch anyhow, because it really doesn't need any buffs whatsoever. AB with RRs are so potent that they're practically an entire doctrine tree unto themselves.

[Tachibana]

Just a quick factcheck: Glider deployment is effected by call in timers, it isn't set time like AB.


That being said, Gliders do have a -75% call in timer available via doctrine(Market Garden), so you could argue its better than set timers for early game rushing.

[Mysthalin]

@ Volsky:

Commandos:

Sad we can't buff chassis rotation. The turret rotation would actually be quite significant, particularly on the tet, Cromwell 95mm and regular crom - and it is a buff that features prominently in other doctrines while remaining quite useful. I would not say it would provide no benefit - at 90 degrees on the regular crom this would mean a change in targeting time from 2.36s to 1.78s.
I have replaced the suggestion for the chassis rotation with 0.9 rec acc while moving.

Enigma decoded - I have added a 0.75 speed modifier for the duration of the ability. Alternatively, capping the speed of tanks/vehicles at 5.2 for the duration would be my preferred choice if possible to code. I don't think it would really be that "abusive" given that the tanks would uncloak at 15m, which is a rather large radius (and keep in mind that dead bodies rolling around on the ground do uncloak units). By and large I would expect the ability to function best on the offense, rather than to leg it with a flank speed crom.

Motorized Inf - I did think after writing things out that we are approaching buffstack bonanza with the buffs available to inf in the tree. I have replaced with infantry grant 1.2 acc in an aura to LVs and tanks. (10mp). I do not see how the 75% callin reduction boost would cause an issue however. Paying 220mp 20FU (and 2 pop) per callin would very quickly become prohibitive if the intention is to drown people in waves.

Raid Ops - The bren would only be driving at 8.25 speed, not 8.75 with the buff, and take 3.5s to reach it's full speed, with nothing to help it's pathing. The jeep would only be reaching 8.45 speed compared to it's current 7.2. I think you might have misread the buff as 1.75 rather than 1.25? Regardless, I believe you may be overestimating how powerful this would be overall.

Recon Forces - fine, buff to the jeep removed. However, there is no reason why it can not be extended to tetrarchs at the very least, given that the poor thing doesn't even get tank commander as an upgrade.

RSE:

Desert Rats - I don't think it's that bad, but if most people simply do not wish to use the thing then so be it, I can think of a different buff altogether. Given that other Armour trees do not exclusively buff tanks, I have proposed a buff to the 6pdr and a non-shell/health buff to the AVRE.

Experimental guns - If you would like to have a look at it again later in the week then that would be good. I don't think that 25% extra damage on the stuart is going to lead to what you fear. Neither will 35% extra pen on the cromwell turn it into the tank of infinite doom. It'll just act as a sort of "upgun-lite" which will be reflected in the continued fuel cost of the ability.

Although your idea for the RR-like shot sounds fun at first glance I suspect that it would be either of limited use, or entirely random in its usefulness if it has a bad scatter angle but extended range (on the already long-ranged Firefly and Black Prince).

Fragmentation Rounds - a simple AoE buff of some useful significance seems better to me. That toggle takes some of my outside the box ideas and places them neatly within a tank-kosher corner of said box

Wait, if it's entirely tank-kosher that should be a good thing, no? Am confused. In any case we can absolutely look at simply changing the splash up a bit. Let me know what your other outside the box ideas are and we can see what could potentially work?

Airbourne:

I've not really had much time to think about the tree in general yet. Simply replacing the RR buff with something more exciting seems pretty gucci to me though, will think on it.

[TheVolskinator]

7.2*1.25=9. Same application toward the MMG. What maths are you using?

[Mysthalin]

+1.25 Not 1.25 multiplier bro.

[Tachibana]

iirc the 1.1 pen on caps is additive, not multiplicative.

edit: now that i look, lol, it doesn't mater, base RR pen is 1 anyway.

[Mysthalin]

RCA I have been unable to find a single thing that is underhwleming at the moment.

Added suggestion to replace baliistic caps with a 30mp, 50mu ability on AB riflemen with recon snipe, which is mutually exclusive with ALL other upgrades, for 30 MP, 50MU.

[Tachibana]

I'd rather see the return of roebuck+disruption combo rather than recon sniping AB rifles.

At least roebuck has counter play.

[Mysthalin]

I'd rather see the return of roebuck+disruption combo rather than recon sniping AB rifles.

At least roebuck has counter play.

In what way do weaker recon tommies that cost more and are unable to get ANY standard or doctrine abilities not have counter play?

[Mysthalin]

All WM and PE commentary now added.

[TheVolskinator]

The 251 has KiM, I just need to give it the upgrade in SQL.

The Force Recon aura works on squads that are @ 3 men.

Survivalists is part of the combo that makes SE OP. There is a very specific reason why I never gave the 4-pop PGs the SQL upgrade to get it (said OP-ness).

The Healcar already cranks out PG squads after 4 bodies are collected. Check the PE racebps.
---
I am aware of a great many of these issues; I simply have not had the time to address them. SE and Blitz are the two doctrines receiving my full attention for the time being. Defensive will get a small facelift including making the bunker buffs more paletteable.

[Tachibana]

Gung-Ho!

InR and Rangers 2x Received Exo

Just.. lol. wat. why? So, so shit

I love Gung-ho =(

As someone who doesn't play much, being able to speedboost my vet gain is great =(
I look at it as an investment, For 3-4 games, I neglect a direct bonus to get a sweet -15% rec.damage, 15% acc, 20% damage, 20% extra HP and way faster fire up from game 4 and onwards. Just switch it out once the vet is on the key squads (rangers in my case mostly)

I can see why it's not see nas great in a Min/Max company, but as a filthy casual doctrine, I think its fantastic.

[Mysthalin]

I love Gung-ho =(

As someone who doesn't play much, being able to speedboost my vet gain is great =(
I look at it as an investment, For 3-4 games, I neglect a direct bonus to get a sweet -15% rec.damage, 15% acc, 20% damage, 20% extra HP and way faster fire up from game 4 and onwards. Just switch it out once the vet is on the key squads (rangers in my case mostly)

I can see why it's not see nas great in a Min/Max company, but as a filthy casual doctrine, I think its fantastic.

The issue with it is that not only does it not do anything other than encourage bad play, but it also actively hurts your teammates by forcing you to have fewer resources, on top of encouraging overly wimpy play. If it was free it would still be bad as you are wasting a doctrine unlock instead of getting useful abilities, but at least not as painfully so.

[Tachibana]

Like I said, its not great if you are min/maxing, but I don't think you can(or should) try to dictate how people should play the game.

[Tachibana]

Gonna hijack possible suggestion for ambush.

Rename: "Ambush!" ---> "Scars of Kursk"

Base: Pgrens with rudimentary repairs now replenish munition pool per death.(either 2 or 3 per death -> 8-12 per squad wipe)

One or two of the following optionals to go with above base (from least ridiculous to most). Modify at leisure if you like the idea but not the execution.
Optional 1: Jagdpanther damage and accuracy modifers vs tp_defense and tp_slit_trench set to 1
Optional 2: Jagdpanther, Hetzer ---> +20% damage, +25% received damage.
Optional 3: Jagdpanther ---> gains vet 1+2 bonuses, can no longer aquire experience.
Optional 4: Jagdpanther/hetzer lockdown ---> weapon swap with min range 40, max range 55
Optional 5: Jagdpanther, hetzer ---> take 3x mine damage, ignore mine crits.

[Mysthalin]

Like I said, its not great if you are min/maxing, but I don't think you can(or should) try to dictate how people should play the game.

To a certain degree one can AND should. Having abilities that actively hurt your team through your non-participation, in a team-focused game, flies in the very face of good game design.

However, I do understand one wanting to keep such an ability around for more casual players. How about a compromise from the glory days of vEiR, with the browser based company building and before PE or brits showed their faces:

1) InR + Rangers start at vet 1
2) InR + Rangers receive vet at 50% extra speed.

No cost.