AT volks are 220 mp brw
Doctrine page lied to me. I checked, you're right. Gotta stop buying them soon.
1. We don't actually see that many MP40 volks, so I'm not sure where this observation came from. You get a lot of DPS for 50 munitions by buying them, sure but the trouble is that you will typically lose one, or even two models before you get to engage BARs at short range, which is where you would start to out-DPS a squad assuming you've still got all 5 models - and it quickly becomes a losing proposition. The upgrade allows you to "win more" against stuff like vanilla rifles - but typically this isn't something that you would want to invest munitions into. Simply staying at long range, in cover allows for more tactical flexibility, and you get to save 50 munitions. If somebody is running a successful MP-40 focused build let me know what it is. For me, it's one of those purchases I might get if I've got some spare muni and am in desperate need of cheap Hail Mary short-range dakka.
I saw Olai used it poorly and after running a lot of tests on them, I'm really convinced to start using them on defensive doctrine. Just need a game to show it.
In the BAR rifle vs MP40s match up... it is sort of a, no one can rush anyone kind of game but what I found that work consistently, is that if you rush MP40s into M range 8 < x < 15 where they deal higher dps to bar rifles, they actually win consistently. There are also a lot of other complex cover mechanics I noted in my testing that yielded very counter intuitive results.
BARs are just bad but MP40s stop every single elite infantry from rushing your position. Its really good actually.
2. Grenadiers - I think you are underselling the grenadiers here a little bit, as with just grenades and medikits for 40 munitions a pop they will comfortably take on BAR riflemen while having a lot more combat versatility due to the grenade. That being said - they perform similarly in this role to Assault Training Volks, which have access to the same abilities, as well as the option for fausts. If you also add ostfront veterans for +10 Hp/man, AT volks outperform vanilla grenadiers for the same price. I don't believe AT volks are overpowered in this case - it's the grens that could use a slight manpower reduction from 240 MP to 220-230.
Okay perhaps with the medkits they could be good but why would you fight a gren with med kit? Either run to let med kit cd or close in with elite inf smgs and rape them anyway.
For grenades everyone runs from a thrown grenade. The amount of micro to make it good is kinda unfair. I rather just run a sniper than to micro grenades on grens.
I think volks and grens fulfil different roles. Core engine mechanics of vcoh dicates smaller squads are more efficient and easier to manage (e.g. 6 man VG mp40 squads, 4 man in 5m rape sauce range, 2 man sitting in meh M range cause squad formation)
Grens are so much more vulnerable to snipers, tanks and everything compared to volks.
Storms are going to be getting their cloak back in Blitz's rework already, as they'll lose access to the one thing that made the cloak bonkers (shreks).
2x Stgs, however, are actually a really good upgrade on storms as they stand since the storms get to (by and large) chose their engagement distance and specific target. For 60 munitions it's really quite cheap - and paying 50 mu for a pair of them over 5x MP40s on volks would be a complete no-brainer.
That being said - 120 MU for 4x is nonsense and doesn't even follow our "rule of thumb" of double upgrades being 1.5x-1.75x the single upgrade. 4x MP44s on Storms should probably be around 100 MU.
Once that's been established, it does begin to beg the question as to why KCH are priced in at the level they are at. They get heroic armour and heroic crits, sure, but they only get 3 guns. Compare that to Assault Grens, that get to sit in IHTs, and cost just 90 MU. 60 Mu would be an excessively large buff, in my view, but reducing their cost to 90 mu is entirely warranted.
The most optimal way to use storms is crawl up to 13m distance, uncloak and run into the mofos... or throw charge first before uncloak and run in for highest dps. The whole cloaking and walking forward and searching for targets to kill is really time consuming and provides no battlefield presence. It's only good against noobs who place support weapons around with no cover or infantry screen.
Look at the stats for storm 4xmp44s I've provided. They are really quite weak. Going over 60 DPS gives very little utility except in the most extreme of circumstances where maximum ROF/DPS wins the day:
- Elite inf vs elite inf all-out shooty fest in heavy cover
- Elife inf vs volks/rifle blob
I would almost prefer a mp40 levels of damage. Being able to out DPS most weapons at M range is a massive advantage. The long "run" into S range nets u massive casualties.
4. Rangers
The issue with Rangers is that you can not remove them from the doctrine that they are in. If they were completely stand-alone.. Yep, I'd get it - but no ranger company worth its salt will ever go in without the buffs it can receive through infantry - most crucially, access to a triage and replacements. With the 4x Thompson upgrade you inherently have a 2 man buffer before you even need to worry about combat losses in any strategic terms. As much as I like balancing based on ceteris paribus assumptions - this is one where the whole ecosystem must be considered, and I couldn't support reducing their cost at this juncture - at least not until other changes discussed here are put in and played through.
Putting rangers at 80-90 MU for thompsons are fine. I've been using rangers with replacements and triage etc. Really not that awesome... it is just that BARs are so horrifyingly bad, rangers look good in comparison.
5. Sten Commandos
Mandos are utterly amazing at wrecking the hell out of volks companies (I would know), but they struggle against infantry with dedicated anti-infantry upgrades, such as LMGs. They do not have the luxury of replenishing models in fights, and have to move in close to fight. They may potentially be slightly over the top with snap-shooting and AB armour (which makes them almost better on the move than sitting in cover in the same fight), but 370 MP and 120 MU really isn't cheap. Even taking the rather underwhelming MP40 as an example - I could get 2 squads of MP40 volks for 360 MP and 120 MU, and I'll even have a medikit on one of the volks. If the mandos get to chose the fight using smoke, they might win, but they will take enough damage to render them ineffective as a result. Tetrarch nerfs are coming down the line soon (tm) and I'd want to see those play out before the base mando unit sees changes.
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The commando feature is just a jibe at some specific player who thinks its alright to run them xD 2 squads of MP40 volks wouldn't kill commandos. I've tested it. The issue with the commandos is the sheer popcap efficiency that massacres all infantry with 12 popcap.
1. MP40s are shit, plz buff.
2. Grens can go down to 220-230
3. 4x MP44 on stormies to 100 mu, KCH to 90 mu.
4. Rangers are fine given ecosystem.
5. Mandos stronk, but rely on tets. Review post tet nerfs.
1. I think MP40s are okay but maybe 5-10 MU cheaper is all we should do (it is still a massive buff for that). I'll run MP40 defensive companies and test.
2. I prefer 210MP because I want to see people field grens. Hardly anyone does it. If they do, they usually lose.
3. 2xmp44 to 50 and 4xmp44 to 80 though. KCH to 60. Look at how bad the DPS on KCH is. It is so unpredictable in combat.
4. Allied infantry upgs and pricing needs a massive fix.
