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Author Topic: EiRR WM Inf Balance Problems  (Read 2876 times)
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Barbi3KillzAll Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 9


« on: December 04, 2019, 09:07:29 pm »

Short Snippet of Heuristics Stats analysis on why WM inf is broken

I would apply this to all factional infantry to achieve good balance but I just want to share some observations. I used WM as I'm quite familiar with the WM balance whereas US and CW has gotten a lot of weird changes and tweaks.

It is too complex to engineer a system for re-balancing EIR units, so I decided to use comparisons of units vs units to gain an idea for what pricing makes sense.

IMPORTANT NOTE - TARGET TABLES AFFECT DPS MASSIVELY
- BAR, MP40, THOMPSON SMG, M3 SMG, PIO MP40... deals 0.75 damage to tp_infantry and all others
- I noted only MP44 (AKA STG44) which also means scoped stg44 (since it is based off mp44) deals full damage to all tp armour types
- M1 Garand, Kar98k Volks & Grens deals full damage to tp_infantry but reduced damage to other types
- I'll do deeper analysis in time to come on all impacts to weapons

Why are there so little grenadiers?

Overwhelming amount of players I see (including myself) do not use grenadiers. On the occasion that we do, we simply use it as a panzerschreck platform... or as a LMG platform (when EliteGren was stacking doctrine buffs + 2x LMGs + walk and fire etc.)

Basic stats tells us these comparisons between Volks, Grens and Rifleman as benchmarks for balancing baseline infantry.

DPS baseline against tp_infantry armour type

Unit - MP cost Pop DPS S/M/L - HP Stats

VG    - 180MP 5 pop - 20.67 / 12.42 / 6.6   - 300 / 60
Gren - 240MP 5 pop - 23.56 / 15.52 / 9.24  - 320 / 80
Rifles - 200MP 5 pop - 25.38 / 10.74 / 6.24 - 330 / 55

Does it make sense to pay 60MP (33% more) for:

DPS utility
What does a higher M and L DPS mean? A rifleman cannot rush a gren squad because it will lose 2 man on the way in and will lose out DPS wise before reaching close range but the reality is for the same MP cost you can get another volksgrenadier or 2 bringing up the DPS to:

VG + 1V 216MP 6 pop - 24.13 / 14.61 / 7.8 (using VG kar98k, not leader kar98k)

or simply buy Assault Training Volksgrenadiers (Fatherland Defence Volks) for 200MP for the same DPS. Note that there is also a doctrine ability that gives +10HP/man for volks.

It can be argued that in some circumstances: limited windows on buildings, slower dps loss rate, the gren is better but 33% more seems excessive.

Lack of recrew utility
- Losing 1 man in an infantry squad is common in EIR to lots of things. Grens cannot recrew without losing vet after losing 1 man. A shot from a sniper, sherman, lucky mortar/arty/offmap has a greater impact.
- If weapons are bought (e.g. schreck/lmg) recrewing instantly gives no buffer to the platform (but allows interesting alpha strike strategies if you consider that pro)
- Volks and rifles on the other hand are free to re-crew and save the vet or use the left-over to backcap / hold sectors giving much more utility.

Solution
Reduce MP to 210. It is better than rifles, but not really by that much if you look at the eco-system of things out there that kills you and its limited utility.

Why are there so many volks mp40s?
Where is KCH? Stormtroopers with MP44s?

MP40s are way more value for money!
Although cursed with a crappy range 30 / 15 / 5 they are still quite powerful against BARs and way cheaper than MP44 platforms.

VG MP40         - 180MP 50MU 5 pop   - 56.74 / 24.56 / 4.46
BAR Rifles       - 200MP 75MU 5 pop   - 40.94 / 17.69 / 7.3
Storm 1xMP44 - 270MP 60MU 5 pop   - 50.64 / 15.58 / 6.66
Storm 2xMP44 - 270MP 120MU 5 pop - 77.72 / 15.64 / 4.08
KCH                - 290MP 110MU 5 pop - 58.29 / 11.73 / 3.06

Given these comparisons why would you bother with storms or KCH when Volks MP40 is such a value for money platform?

Volks MP40 at medium range out DPS BAR Rifles but because of moving accuracy penalty, neither volks, nor rifles (nor any of these inf) can move into medium or short range.

BARs kind of win sitting at long range trading shots. except that even an un-upgraded Gren squad kicks your ass at M and L range unless you close to S range.

The difficulty in pricing BAR would be the premium to be place on the suppressive fire ability. While the dps increase on BARs at short range is great, they can be a bit cheaper (when an un-upgraded unit might still kick your ass at M and L range)

Furthermore, what is not shown is the MP44's abysmal range, LMS at 35, 13, 6.

An interesting difference between MP40 and MP44 is that MP44 has 0.75 moving accuracy penalty making them a better option at closing the distance than MP40s with default 0.5 penalty.

However... Blitz Doctrine - Heroes of Villers-Bocage removes moving accuracy penalty, making buying MP40s a no-brainer. CLARIFICATION BY DIRE => Villers-Bocage does not affect MP40 per RGD, doctrine still says it does.

Solution proposed using MP40 as baseline (also in conjunction to pricing Allied/CW weapons through same analyses)
- BARs DPS is shockingly bad but the suppressive fire is really good. Perhaps it may be better to decouple suppressive fire from the BAR upgrade. There's a reason why BAR upgrades occur in T2 vcoh play given to all rifleman (vs Grens n volks)
- De-couple cloak from STG44 purchase. Storms should have cloak. Increase MP if necessary.
- 2xMP44 to go down to 50 MU, it is really not that good. (Premium paid for 0.75 moving acc)
- Make 4x MP44 purchase cheaper at 80 MU because it doesn't increase M or L range performance.
- If this make MP44 too powerful on the storms platform, increase the MP cost of storms.
- Remove Heroes of Villers-Bocage doctrine ability. It is game breaking and makes MP40s superior to MP44s.
- KCH to go down to 60MU. Their DPS is really crap.

Ranger Elite Inf comparison for KCH

I took a look at Rangers Thompson SMG. It is also overpriced.

RGR 4xM1SMG 300MP 130MU 6 pop - 60.31 / 13.49 / 5.41 (2 x M1 Garand Marine)

Probably needs to be same price at 4xMP44. It's main advantage is LMS is 35, 17, 8 like normal single shot rifles which prevents rangers from getting charged.

Commandos w/ Stens for comparison

Stens Range 35, 17, 8 - Moving accuracy 0.5

290MP 120MU 6 Pop - 85.37 / 12.83 / 4.8 - 390 HP, 65/man

40MP Mobile Operations +10HP per man, Gain AB Armour (0.75 received accuracy while moving from infantry weapons)... since you'll be chasing people or running away this is BLOODY GOOD. Tanks get a general 0.75 accuracy multiplier against you. BEST BUY EVER.

20MP The Paras +10HP per man with Stens purchase (Bonuses 1.25 Acc 0.8 Cooldown in enemy territory)

20MP Advanced Snap Shooting 1.75 Acc while moving

After all these buffs for a CHEAP CHEAP PRICE OF

370MP 120MU

HP > 510, 85/man
Moving Effective HP against infantry weapons > 680, 113.33/man

DPS while moving (approximated figures, increase in burst duration not analysed)
42.68  / 6.4  / 2.4    Unbuffed
75.8   / 11.3 / 4.25  Snap Shooting
94.73 / 14.13 / 5.31 Snap Shooting & Paras in enemy territory

Can anyone say WTF? Now where are my AT tetties to clear out the enemy tanks... (Remember the tank synergy FU argument I've made in another thread)

Fun Fact. Assault Training (Fatherland) Volks w/ Scoped MP44 is the ultimate long range winner with ranges 35, 17, 8 instead of default 35, 13, 6.

200MP 80MU 5 pop - 44.41 / 25.67 / 12.54

Notes: Criticals, Moving penalties + Moving burst duration extension not fully evaluated. I don't put an exponential premium on going pass 50 DPS in short range. There's a noticeable trend in how the DPS appears to be balanced and over kills do not seem very beneficial except in exceptional situation of 2 storms with 4xmp44s clearing an infantry support weapon blob.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:24:34 am by Barbi3KillzAll » Logged
Tachibana Offline
NotADev
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Posts: 1283


« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 09:41:51 pm »

Villers doesnt effect mp40s. I think with explicit intent. If it says otherwise, #blameunknown
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Barbi3KillzAll Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 9


« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2019, 12:22:13 am »

I ran some tests. Tests are one unit rushing the other on neutral terrain repeated 3x for quick test.

Assault Training Volksgrenadier is better than Grenadiers because:
1. AT VG wins BAR rifles on RNG (2Ws barely, 1L)
2. Grenadiers always lose to BAR rifleman

KCH performs slightly better than Storms 1xMP44
i. L - KCH killed w/ 2 rifles left at 10% hp. RNG jesus not there.
ii. W - 2 KCH 60% HP, RNG Jesus Heroic Crits.
iii. W - 2 KCH 10% HP.

However if they are kept at their current price, u probably don't want RNGjesus to decide if you win or lose engagements...

Storms 1x MP44
i. W - 1 storms 15% HP
ii. Cloaked walked in, break cloak shoot. Made mistake because didnt step in close enough. L - 2 rifles left
iii. Cloaked, ran in close enough. Almost same result as i. W with 15% 1 left.

Will test MP40 theories next
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:25:46 am by Barbi3KillzAll » Logged
Barbi3KillzAll Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 9


« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2019, 01:33:33 am »

2x Commando Stens w/ Mobile Ops + Snap Shooting (No Paras cause tested in friendly territory, no smoke pop)
versus 4x Assault Training Volksgrenadiers
1. W - 4man 30%, 2man 10% => Run straight up to close quarters and shoot
2. W - 5man 50% 1man 10%  => Run straight up to close quarters and shoot

If microed properly in enemy territory they would deal more damage and easily get back to heal at CCS. The commandos started taking substantial damage when I stopped them (cause no more moving accuracy penalty with AB armour)

Storms w/ 2xMP44 vs BAR Rifles
1. Straight up charge has the same result as Storms w/ 1xMP44 (1 or 2 left usually with low hp)
2. Most effective is cloak and creep close (until M range) uncloak and run into close range <6, like right in front of BAR rifles and shoot. This had 3 man left (twice) with about 70% hp after clearing the BAR Rifles.
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Unkn0wn Offline
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Posts: 18382


« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2019, 05:05:49 am »

Good readout, and i'd agree itd be good to revise some prices as you've outlined. KCH at 3 man certainly rarely seem to be worth the 110 MU investment with how easily you lose a first man. Grens could probably go down to 220-230, 210 might be a bit too cheap compared to rifles at 200. Question is also whether we should bring grens down or bring units like volks/rifles up. Recrewability is very underrated. Some players opt to spam just rifles/volks and bank on being able to capture support weapons, saving them a lot of MU and MP in the process.
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Mysthalin Offline
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2019, 10:30:36 am »

AT volks are 220 mp brw
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Mysthalin Offline
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Posts: 9049


« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 03:22:41 pm »

Not on the tube anymore, so can respond with a bit more thought now.

1. We don't actually see that many MP40 volks, so I'm not sure where this observation came from. You get a lot of DPS for 50 munitions by buying them, sure but the trouble is that you will typically lose one, or even two models before you get to engage BARs at short range, which is where you would start to out-DPS a squad assuming you've still got all 5 models - and it quickly becomes a losing proposition. The upgrade allows you to "win more" against stuff like vanilla rifles - but typically this isn't something that you would want to invest munitions into. Simply staying at long range, in cover allows for more tactical flexibility, and you get to save 50 munitions. If somebody is running a successful MP-40 focused build let me know what it is. For me, it's one of those purchases I might get if I've got some spare muni and am in desperate need of cheap Hail Mary short-range dakka.

2. Grenadiers - I think you are underselling the grenadiers here a little bit, as with just grenades and medikits for 40 munitions a pop they will comfortably take on BAR riflemen while having a lot more combat versatility due to the grenade. That being said - they perform similarly in this role to Assault Training Volks, which have access to the same abilities, as well as the option for fausts. If you also add ostfront veterans for +10 Hp/man, AT volks outperform vanilla grenadiers for the same price. I don't believe AT volks are overpowered in this case - it's the grens that could use a slight manpower reduction from 240 MP to 220-230.

3. Storms/MP44s.

Storms are going to be getting their cloak back in Blitz's rework already, as they'll lose access to the one thing that made the cloak bonkers (shreks).
2x Stgs, however, are actually a really good upgrade on storms as they stand since the storms get to (by and large) chose their engagement distance and specific target. For 60 munitions it's really quite cheap - and paying 50 mu for a pair of them over 5x MP40s on volks would be a complete no-brainer.
That being said - 120 MU for 4x is nonsense and doesn't even follow our "rule of thumb" of double upgrades being 1.5x-1.75x the single upgrade. 4x MP44s on Storms should probably be around 100 MU.
Once that's been established, it does begin to beg the question as to why KCH are priced in at the level they are at. They get heroic armour and heroic crits, sure, but they only get 3 guns. Compare that to Assault Grens, that get to sit in IHTs, and cost just 90 MU. 60 Mu would be an excessively large buff, in my view, but reducing their cost to 90 mu is entirely warranted.

4. Rangers

The issue with Rangers is that you can not remove them from the doctrine that they are in. If they were completely stand-alone.. Yep, I'd get it - but no ranger company worth its salt will ever go in without the buffs it can receive through infantry - most crucially, access to a triage and replacements. With the 4x Thompson upgrade you inherently have a 2 man buffer before you even need to worry about combat losses in any strategic terms. As much as I like balancing based on ceteris paribus assumptions - this is one where the whole ecosystem must be considered, and I couldn't support reducing their cost at this juncture - at least not until other changes discussed here are put in and played through.

5. Sten Commandos

Mandos are utterly amazing at wrecking the hell out of volks companies (I would know), but they struggle against infantry with dedicated anti-infantry upgrades, such as LMGs. They do not have the luxury of replenishing models in fights, and have to move in close to fight. They may potentially be slightly over the top with snap-shooting and AB armour (which makes them almost better on the move than sitting in cover in the same fight), but 370 MP and 120 MU really isn't cheap. Even taking the rather underwhelming MP40 as an example - I could get 2 squads of MP40 volks for 360 MP and 120 MU, and I'll even have a medikit on one of the volks. If the mandos get to chose the fight using smoke, they might win, but they will take enough damage to render them ineffective as a result. Tetrarch nerfs are coming down the line soon (tm) and I'd want to see those play out before the base mando unit sees changes.

Summary

1. MP40s are shit, plz buff.
2. Grens can go down to 220-230
3. 4x MP44 on stormies to 100 mu, KCH to 90 mu.
4. Rangers are fine given ecosystem.
5. Mandos stronk, but rely on tets. Review post tet nerfs.
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Barbi3KillzAll Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 9


« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2019, 03:52:05 pm »

AT volks are 220 mp brw

Doctrine page lied to me. I checked, you're right. Gotta stop buying them soon.

1. We don't actually see that many MP40 volks, so I'm not sure where this observation came from. You get a lot of DPS for 50 munitions by buying them, sure but the trouble is that you will typically lose one, or even two models before you get to engage BARs at short range, which is where you would start to out-DPS a squad assuming you've still got all 5 models - and it quickly becomes a losing proposition. The upgrade allows you to "win more" against stuff like vanilla rifles - but typically this isn't something that you would want to invest munitions into. Simply staying at long range, in cover allows for more tactical flexibility, and you get to save 50 munitions. If somebody is running a successful MP-40 focused build let me know what it is. For me, it's one of those purchases I might get if I've got some spare muni and am in desperate need of cheap Hail Mary short-range dakka.

I saw Olai used it poorly and after running a lot of tests on them, I'm really convinced to start using them on defensive doctrine. Just need a game to show it.

In the BAR rifle vs MP40s match up... it is sort of a, no one can rush anyone kind of game but what I found that work consistently, is that if you rush MP40s into M range 8 < x < 15 where they deal higher dps to bar rifles, they actually win consistently. There are also a lot of other complex cover mechanics I noted in my testing that yielded very counter intuitive results.

BARs are just bad but MP40s stop every single elite infantry from rushing your position. Its really good actually.

2. Grenadiers - I think you are underselling the grenadiers here a little bit, as with just grenades and medikits for 40 munitions a pop they will comfortably take on BAR riflemen while having a lot more combat versatility due to the grenade. That being said - they perform similarly in this role to Assault Training Volks, which have access to the same abilities, as well as the option for fausts. If you also add ostfront veterans for +10 Hp/man, AT volks outperform vanilla grenadiers for the same price. I don't believe AT volks are overpowered in this case - it's the grens that could use a slight manpower reduction from 240 MP to 220-230.

Okay perhaps with the medkits they could be good but why would you fight a gren with med kit? Either run to let med kit cd or close in with elite inf smgs and rape them anyway.

For grenades everyone runs from a thrown grenade. The amount of micro to make it good is kinda unfair. I rather just run a sniper than to micro grenades on grens.

I think volks and grens fulfil different roles. Core engine mechanics of vcoh dicates smaller squads are more efficient and easier to manage (e.g. 6 man VG mp40 squads, 4 man in 5m rape sauce range, 2 man sitting in meh M range cause squad formation)

Grens are so much more vulnerable to snipers, tanks and everything compared to volks.

Storms are going to be getting their cloak back in Blitz's rework already, as they'll lose access to the one thing that made the cloak bonkers (shreks).
2x Stgs, however, are actually a really good upgrade on storms as they stand since the storms get to (by and large) chose their engagement distance and specific target. For 60 munitions it's really quite cheap - and paying 50 mu for a pair of them over 5x MP40s on volks would be a complete no-brainer.
That being said - 120 MU for 4x is nonsense and doesn't even follow our "rule of thumb" of double upgrades being 1.5x-1.75x the single upgrade. 4x MP44s on Storms should probably be around 100 MU.
Once that's been established, it does begin to beg the question as to why KCH are priced in at the level they are at. They get heroic armour and heroic crits, sure, but they only get 3 guns. Compare that to Assault Grens, that get to sit in IHTs, and cost just 90 MU. 60 Mu would be an excessively large buff, in my view, but reducing their cost to 90 mu is entirely warranted.

The most optimal way to use storms is crawl up to 13m distance, uncloak and run into the mofos... or throw charge first before uncloak and run in for highest dps. The whole cloaking and walking forward and searching for targets to kill is really time consuming and provides no battlefield presence. It's only good against noobs who place support weapons around with no cover or infantry screen.

Look at the stats for storm 4xmp44s I've provided. They are really quite weak. Going over 60 DPS gives very little utility except in the most extreme of circumstances where maximum ROF/DPS wins the day:

- Elite inf vs elite inf all-out shooty fest in heavy cover
- Elife inf vs volks/rifle blob

I would almost prefer a mp40 levels of damage. Being able to out DPS most weapons at M range is a massive advantage. The long "run" into S range nets u massive casualties.

4. Rangers

The issue with Rangers is that you can not remove them from the doctrine that they are in. If they were completely stand-alone.. Yep, I'd get it - but no ranger company worth its salt will ever go in without the buffs it can receive through infantry - most crucially, access to a triage and replacements. With the 4x Thompson upgrade you inherently have a 2 man buffer before you even need to worry about combat losses in any strategic terms. As much as I like balancing based on ceteris paribus assumptions - this is one where the whole ecosystem must be considered, and I couldn't support reducing their cost at this juncture - at least not until other changes discussed here are put in and played through.

Putting rangers at 80-90 MU for thompsons are fine. I've been using rangers with replacements and triage etc. Really not that awesome... it is just that BARs are so horrifyingly bad, rangers look good in comparison.

5. Sten Commandos

Mandos are utterly amazing at wrecking the hell out of volks companies (I would know), but they struggle against infantry with dedicated anti-infantry upgrades, such as LMGs. They do not have the luxury of replenishing models in fights, and have to move in close to fight. They may potentially be slightly over the top with snap-shooting and AB armour (which makes them almost better on the move than sitting in cover in the same fight), but 370 MP and 120 MU really isn't cheap. Even taking the rather underwhelming MP40 as an example - I could get 2 squads of MP40 volks for 360 MP and 120 MU, and I'll even have a medikit on one of the volks. If the mandos get to chose the fight using smoke, they might win, but they will take enough damage to render them ineffective as a result. Tetrarch nerfs are coming down the line soon (tm) and I'd want to see those play out before the base mando unit sees changes.
[/quote]

The commando feature is just a jibe at some specific player who thinks its alright to run them xD 2 squads of MP40 volks wouldn't kill commandos. I've tested it. The issue with the commandos is the sheer popcap efficiency that massacres all infantry with 12 popcap.

1. MP40s are shit, plz buff.
2. Grens can go down to 220-230
3. 4x MP44 on stormies to 100 mu, KCH to 90 mu.
4. Rangers are fine given ecosystem.
5. Mandos stronk, but rely on tets. Review post tet nerfs.

1. I think MP40s are okay but maybe 5-10 MU cheaper is all we should do (it is still a massive buff for that). I'll run MP40 defensive companies and test.
2. I prefer 210MP because I want to see people field grens. Hardly anyone does it. If they do, they usually lose.
3. 2xmp44 to 50 and 4xmp44 to 80 though. KCH to 60. Look at how bad the DPS on KCH is. It is so unpredictable in combat.
4. Allied infantry upgs and pricing needs a massive fix.
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2019, 05:47:30 pm »

Good, sounds like we identified some price changes to make!

I wouldn't say "hardly anyone does" field grens by the way. Volksspam is very much in vogue at the moment, so you're probably getting a bit too much of a skewed view from the 10 - 20 game or so games youve played so far.

On storms, I've been using the 2x upgrade over the 4x because there's really little reason to pay twice the price when the 2x will already reliably allow you to ambush and kill whatever you come up across. If you pick your engagements wisely, you can afford to kill your targets slower than you would with the 4x upgrade. Thats 60 Mun you can spend on a bundle nade and a medkit.

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