Regarding Calliope Vet 3

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[scrapking]

Just for reference, the current cooldown is 80s, the current T4 cooldown is 40s. The old cooldown was 120s (2mins), the old T4 was 60s. Twenty-four CP to get the standard barrage time of a stuka. Twenty four (mind you, we armour players don't get an upgrade for better rocket damage, if I'm correct, you have a T3 that doubles the damage of Stuka + Nebelwerfer rockets?). Stukas cost less, are not dodgable, do much more damage to buildings & vehicles, and are easier to use.

Explain to me why you should, from pre-vCoH patch, get 40 seconds off base, and 20 seconds off T4 cooldown then?  Stukas, while also broken, imo (because of 5 pop) might be similar in damage per barrage, but receive far fewer barrages (~half) and die when an RR looks at them.  So let's not go down that road, unless you would like to discuss how to fix Stukas too.  The spread buff I think was deserved, but Relic wasn't considering EiR balance when they made those changes, they cannot be simply adapted out of hand because it was done for vanilla.

CP prices are mostly irrelevent considering you will wind up with a huge surplus in another week or so.  Otherwise its only about how soon in the war you will see them.  That isn't the issue here, its about how they work when you DO have them.

Imagine if Relic added 25% suppression, 20% damage and 25% range to all Axis mortars, HMGs & snipers in the next vCoH patch - and what it would do to breaking the Terror / Heavy Weapon Support tree (nevermind all of EiR).  When Relic goes and makes a change which EiR was already emulating with CP abilities, it breaks our CP abilities.  They weren't thinking of us when they did it.  But that doesn't remove the need for us to think of ourselves when we implement THEIR change.  Some of Relic's BS can be costed accordingly, some of it really can't.

[scrapking]

Fuck sakes people. It may be overpowered, perhaps, but I don't think so. Axis have very good standard artillery, and more artillery available in doctrines. The allies have shit. Mortars. Bloody stinking mortars. Mortars with inferior range, nonetheless. Without proper artillery support, we'd be pushed back every battle. Advancing slowly, yet constantly, with well-protected artillery support is the key to winning almost any battle. Now with the 60:00 minute timer off, this favours that strategy even more. And yet you folks fail to realize that only about 3 or 4 people on Europe in Ruins actually have calliopes (this will increase, eventually), the only mobile artillery unit the Americans have in their entire arsenel.

Please children, calm down. Calliope users don't have it easy. We have intense arthritis, constant paranoia (which contributes to very little sleep), and we are slow, heavy, and defenseless.

Now you're being obviously biased and defensive.

[Avalanche]

I stand corrected then.

i am correct with vet3(0.3.8 vet3) have near damage as stuka

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The stuka has longer cooldown, however its much easier to position and has longer effective range.  In actual game terms you are never going to get anything close to twice as many calliope barrages off. Maybe like 4 for 3 at best, but tbh in my experience they're about equal owing to the positioning issue.

[Prydefalcn]

The stuka has longer cooldown, however its much easier to position and has longer effective range.

I respectfully disagree.  Anyone who uses half-tracks should know about their attrocious pathfinding   and anyone who uses stukas would know that firing at max range puts your rockets anywhere over a rather wide area.  It's just as bad as the Calliope

Regardless of what I said above, I don't think the stuka is at a disadvantage at what it does.  I am, however, confused as to what Scrapking is going on about free T4s and double damage or whatnot.

[scrapking]

The stuka has longer cooldown, however its much easier to position and has longer effective range.

  I am, however, confused as to what Scrapking is going on about free T4s and double damage or whatnot.

The recent vCoH patch.

Prior to it, in the desired balance in EiR, we had Calliopes' cooldown at 120 seconds base, 60 seconds with T4.  Prior to it there was no "improved spread".

After it, Calliopes' cooldown is 80 seconds base, 40 seconds with a T4.  ( I had something confused so it isn't double, instead its 33%).

OK, so its not exactly a  "free" T4 ( I was incorrectly remembering it at 160 seconds base / 80 seconds with T4), but it is now at base, closer to the previous T4 cooldown than previous base cooldown.  The unit underwent a major effectiveness change (including the spread improvement, which I think it rightly deserves) with only a 150 FU adjustment.  Tacking on 150FU to it is effectively nerfing all other armor in the Calliope's company except the Calliope.  You don't get less Calliope, you get less Sherman, Croc, M10, M8, etc.  It doesn't change how dramatic that the Calliope's effectiveness was just made.

My point is that it was relatively fine before, and now, is not.  My solution would be to return the cooldowns and prices to PRE-vCoH values (where it was balanced already, or close to it), and accept that the change to its spread is enough of a boost to the unit.

Imagine if Relic released a patch giving Tigers a sizeable DPS increase, and then consider how it would be broken when combined with say, HEAT rounds. 

My issue is that Relic made a substantial change to a unit's effectiveness obviously without forethought of how it fits into EiR, and its CP abilities.

[Avalanche]

awsome post scrapking

i knoow many player are saying, "meh, calliope got price increased, and we beat them easily last war" but they failed to understand how op it is now

[Unkn0wn]

Not with the new vet it isn't.
You guys fail to see how 'weak' the calliope is at vet 0 compared to other types of artillery.
I said this earlier, a lot of people have a flawed view on the calliope because of the 50% damage vet.

Also, I for one think the T4 should be replaced with something else.
Lowering the cooldown % beyond half would not make it a desirable T4 anymore although to keep the unit balanced, it should never fire every 40 seconds. Perhaps a +25% damage & -25% cooldown would be much better overall.

I disagree completely with changing vCoH stats to prior patch. That'd be a foolish thing to do.
You basically want to make the calliope ineffective again. I highly recommend you to try using it yourself to proof how OP it truly is, you'll have a nice surprise. (I had to make an account and get 2x KTs in a game to proof that there was a problem.)

[Avalanche]

i know what you are saying unknown, but if such thing that is crap at vet0, but godly at vet3, then the vet is broken, it gives too much bonus compared to other units in the game.

one suggestion is make vet0 stronger and vet3 weaker (than what they are now)

[Unkn0wn]

The current vet changes were pretty much a major slap in the face for the calliope.
Especially the calliope +10 range is absolutely worthless, I believe someone calculated and said this ended up being 4% extra range or so...

Vet 1 & Vet 2 aren't too bad, they're on par with other units but the vet 3 really needs to be reconsidered.

[Prydefalcn]

Ah, I misunderstood what you had meant with my previous post then, Scrapking.  For that, I apologize.

However, the change in vCoH didn't come free.  Whether or not you thought the price change was enough, well, I think it was because the calliope was a little overpriced beforehand anyway.  If it's the FU price of a panther now, well, you can always use a Panther to take it out

80 seconds is now in line with other arty (of the axis variety) and if someone wants to devote a T4 to cutting that in half, I'm fine with it.  I can get down to 60s just by getting a nebelwerfer to vet 3, and I actually like the nebel's functionality more