The Final Calliope Debate

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http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php/topic,4495.msg77283/topicseen.html#new

ahh that was slightly on topic... it is still about unit skins...

[salan]

"Well-formed" would imply that your arguments actually make sense. The reason I said you "cause me mental anguish" is because you seem incapable of writing with proper grammar and capitalization, much to my displeasure. I refuse to devolve into arguing with someone who fails to grasp the tenets of the language with which we are expressing ourselves. Good day, Sir.

So what if that person didn't have english as his first language?

That does not prevent one from making an effort to use proper grammar. In fact, I find that when someone is new to a language they are more focused on proper structure than those who consider themselves to be fluent and have become careless with their words. Again I will ask you folks to return to the topic at hand rather than the discussion of my arrogant remarks.

Actually there are things called minor deficiencies in many of the people who have grown up with English as their first and only language.  For myself, and I don't mind admitting it, I was far behind where I should have been in both my grammar and my spelling.  I took courses endlessly to improve on where I was at and only through determination did I manage to be as good at the written language as I am now, and believe me I don't need you to be reminding me anymore then a non-native English member needs you picking on their shortcomings.  I can put thoughts together at an alarming rate and am very witty and helpful in my conversations.  But arguing on paper is NOT my forte.   Its simply the only avenue I have available here.  So your arrogance is not acceptable, nor is your pretense of intelligence when you yourself are stupid enough to bring me into a conversation and then right away admit that you have no clue what I was even arguing. 

I personally feel that the Calliope, for its price, is rightfully powerful, as it has very little protection at close range. I will concede that an increase in it's pop cap value may be in order, but nothing severe. Perhaps an increase by 4 or 5 points would be adequate, enough to limit the support crew that a player is able to bring in simultaneously with the vehicle itself.

Little protection at close range?  Justify that comment please.  Do anti infantry weapons damage it?  Is it stationary?  Can it be de-crewed?  Does it have to go around sandbags and barbwire?  Does it have no protective armament?  Can it not crush infantry?

Against a tank or a anti tank unit the calliope can defend itself, backing up and firing into the unit does work, albeit the timer needs to be refreshed, and you need to be quick enough to get a bit of distance.  Its armor and mobility are meant to keep it alive while the other units around it deal with the immediate threat to its life.  You can't balance it in the positives based on its survivability when you see calliopes start battles and survive to the end of a fight meanwhile killing enemy infantry and vehicles a like.

[Mobius]

I personally feel that the Calliope, for its price, is rightfully powerful, as it has very little protection at close range. I will concede that an increase in it's pop cap value may be in order, but nothing severe. Perhaps an increase by 4 or 5 points would be adequate, enough to limit the support crew that a player is able to bring in simultaneously with the vehicle itself.

Little protection at close range?  Justify that comment please.  Do anti infantry weapons damage it?  Is it stationary?  Can it be de-crewed?  Does it have to go around sandbags and barbwire?  Does it have no protective armament?  Can it not crush infantry?

Against a tank or a anti tank unit the calliope can defend itself, backing up and firing into the unit does work, albeit the timer needs to be refreshed, and you need to be quick enough to get a bit of distance.  Its armor and mobility are meant to keep it alive while the other units around it deal with the immediate threat to its life.  You can't balance it in the positives based on its survivability when you see calliopes start battles and survive to the end of a fight meanwhile killing enemy infantry and vehicles a like.

Little protection at close range: No small scale defensive armament other than improvising the main weapon to fire at short range, as well as poor armor for defense against anti-tank weaponry. Shermans do not have very good armor when put up against nearly anything the Axis has to offer, including but not limited to: Panzershrecks, Panzerfausts, Pak 38s, StuGs, Panzer IVs, Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, and upgraded Pumas. When further factoring in the lack of a readily available weapon (read: anything that fires automatically), the Calliope is not fit to combat any number of the aforementioned units toe-to-toe (read: within the opposing units' effective range). Granted the Calliope can be defended with other Allied units, this is a discussion of the Calliope's capabilities, not those of the units that can support it.

Overall it is a poor unit to use in close-range combat, and your inferences to the contrary seem to be highly circumstantial in nature. Yes, you can back up and fire it, but that's rarely going to be very effective, and once you've fired, the unit is once again defenseless for another 80 seconds.

Also, please don't call me stupid. That's not the kind of discussion I'm trying to have here.

[Thtb]

So yes your right mobius, the calliope is not the best close combat unitif its cooldown is still running. *Clap Calp*

However it is currently the only arty unit in the game that survies small arms fire as well as several anti tank hits + possible smoke upgrade. ITs the most easy to vet unit imo, too.

[salan]

you make good points, but you forget it does have a MG for infantry, not that that is the point you are making.

and you were trying to have that kind of conversation until you decided it was over, I didn't agree with it being over.

[Mobius]

However it is currently the only arty unit in the game that survies small arms fire as well as several anti tank hits + possible smoke upgrade. ITs the most easy to vet unit imo, too.

I'd argue that it wouldn't survive "several" anti-tank hits, but perhaps a few. As for surviving small arms fire, the Axis has the Walking Stuka, which, while admittedly not as well-armored, is much, much cheaper, though moderately less powerful. It is also a universal unit, not limited to a specific doctrine.

[CommanderHolt]

The Stuka belongs only to the Defensive Doctrine.... The Nebel is the universal one.

[Mobius]

Oh. Oh well, then it is more comparable than I thought. My point remains, Axis does still have an artillery piece that is resistant to small arms.

[Days of War]

you make good points, but you forget it does have a MG for infantry, not that that is the point you are making.

and you were trying to have that kind of conversation until you decided it was over, I didn't agree with it being over.

Oh snap, that's right! I forgot about the insane suppression and damage the hull MG of the calliope has. Wait, does it even have one? If it does, I've never noticed because it's such a piece of shit. Really, that thing doesn't count as anti infantry.

[Eleven]

I've never had a problem with Calliopes. They have killed my units before, of course, but I have learned not to clump them up by any means and to sit in places a calliope can't touch. You wouldn't believe how much damage it does to two mortars sitting behind a building. Or to 2 double shrek squads behind a hedge. Just think people. It's way easier to avoid than a Stuka or Nebel, it just fires more often so you've gotta be smart and not give it shit to shoot at.

[Thtb]

A barrage, evry 40 secs - you cant hide behind anything soon, bastion got totally destroyed.

Days so your saying; Thing you pointed out is not important since i think its not important hahaha.

[Days of War]

A barrage, evry 40 secs - you cant hide behind anything soon, bastion got totally destroyed.

Days so your saying; Thing you pointed out is not important since i think its not important hahaha.

I'm saying what he point out is not important because it isn't. It doesn't do anything.

[Mobius]

I've never had a problem with Calliopes. They have killed my units before, of course, but I have learned not to clump them up by any means and to sit in places a calliope can't touch. You wouldn't believe how much damage it does to two mortars sitting behind a building. Or to 2 double shrek squads behind a hedge. Just think people. It's way easier to avoid than a Stuka or Nebel, it just fires more often so you've gotta be smart and not give it shit to shoot at.

Actually, the Walking Stuka has a cooldown of 60 seconds to the Calliope's 80 seconds. The Nebelwerfer is 90 seconds, I believe.

And Thtb, the hull MG on any Sherman is nigh worthless, let alone the Calliope. Sure it does some damage, but I've yet to see it be a major asset. You are of course free to provide any evidence or anecdotes to the contrary.

[jackmccrack]

to the Calliope's 80 seconds

Don't forget, with the easily attainable T4 (the Logistics tree is the most easy on CP's out of the Armor doctrine trees), the cooldown goes to 40 seconds.

[DasNoob]

i like the way you threaten to make him go insane .

really won't help your mental stability

well its obvious he has issues with well formed and determined arguments... bringing me into one that i was specifically staying out of, will have an effect he really obviously doesn't like.

"Well-formed" would imply that your arguments actually make sense. The reason I said you "cause me mental anguish" is because you seem incapable of writing with proper grammar and capitalization, much to my displeasure. I refuse to devolve into arguing with someone who fails to grasp the tenets of the language with which we are expressing ourselves. Good day, Sir.

So what if that person didn't have english as his first language?

That does not prevent one from making an effort to use proper grammar. In fact, I find that when someone is new to a language they are more focused on proper structure than those who consider themselves to be fluent and have become careless with their words. Again I will ask you folks to return to the topic at hand rather than the discussion of my arrogant remarks.

Actually there are things called minor deficiencies in many of the people who have grown up with English as their first and only language.  For myself, and I don't mind admitting it, I was far behind where I should have been in both my grammar and my spelling.  I took courses endlessly to improve on where I was at and only through determination did I manage to be as good at the written language as I am now, and believe me I don't need you to be reminding me anymore then a non-native English member needs you picking on their shortcomings.  I can put thoughts together at an alarming rate and am very witty and helpful in my conversations.  But arguing on paper is NOT my forte.   Its simply the only avenue I have available here.  So your arrogance is not acceptable, nor is your pretense of intelligence when you yourself are stupid enough to bring me into a conversation and then right away admit that you have no clue what I was even arguing. 

I personally feel that the Calliope, for its price, is rightfully powerful, as it has very little protection at close range. I will concede that an increase in it's pop cap value may be in order, but nothing severe. Perhaps an increase by 4 or 5 points would be adequate, enough to limit the support crew that a player is able to bring in simultaneously with the vehicle itself.

Little protection at close range?  Justify that comment please.  Do anti infantry weapons damage it?  Is it stationary?  Can it be de-crewed?  Does it have to go around sandbags and barbwire?  Does it have no protective armament?  Can it not crush infantry?

Against a tank or a anti tank unit the calliope can defend itself, backing up and firing into the unit does work, albeit the timer needs to be refreshed, and you need to be quick enough to get a bit of distance.  Its armor and mobility are meant to keep it alive while the other units around it deal with the immediate threat to its life.  You can't balance it in the positives based on its survivability when you see calliopes start battles and survive to the end of a fight meanwhile killing enemy infantry and vehicles a like.

Akranadas I thought you said you were going to clean S#$t like this out of the threads?  These attacks back and forth are clearly personal and I don't like seeing it muddy up a thread.

[Jazlizard]

First off I'll be honest and I haven't read all 5 pages of this thread, but since this is the "final" (yeah right) debate on the calliope, I just wanted to say the following.

I feel that the 40second cooldown is a bit insane right now, whatever 'fix' is in the works, I really wish it would hurry up and get here, I hope we don't have to wait till 2.0 (unless it's comming out VERY soon) to see this issue addressed.

Lastly so I don't come off as an ungrateful jerk, I think you're doing an awesome job fldash, is there any chance to remedy this issue sooner rather then later?

[ZOMGZombies]

Having not read all the 5 pages you missed fl- saying they already have a fix planned for it

[Jazlizard]

Thanks!

[zomgzombiescalliope]

np