Adjust the Price of BARS

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[31stPzrGrenadier]

maybe BAR rifle vs kch, they won't win. I'll give u the benefit of the doubt. BUT.

2 KCH vs 3 Rifles + 2 BARS, the riflemen will DEFINTELY win.

Pop Comparison: 12 vs 15, okay slight difference in 3 pop cap here, but the riflemen will win with barely any loss so this is discounted.
Price Comparison: 640MP + 200 Muni (correct me if I'm wrong, but I NEVER buy KCH.) vs 600MP + 150 Muni. Clear winner here is the Riflemen for being cost effective and staying on the field.

Both unvetted, both without any doctrine ability boost.

Even a Storm with MP44 will be better than a KCH if the Munition price of its MP44 was revised down.

[RedDevilNarref]

They wont kill it on their own, they will just supress them.
Killing pinned troops is certainly hard, and only supressed KCH will still rip a riflesquad.
Also it's mostly a 1 use ability(long cd).
KCH can kill all the time.
I think 80 munitions is also a little low for a grenadiersquad to kill riflesquads with only 1 man left.

And they are referring to this:

i'm not answering u salan, because its your first time playing coh, or u just want to make this topic useless.

Salan set up a failed Tournament, the TLS roleplay campaign, and was sole balancer of this mod for several weeks.

lol, ¿1 grenadier with lmg can kill a riflesquad?  
And Salan's experience on TLS eir or whatever doesnt make he's opinions true, or that question he did usefull, that's just a fallacy (dont sure if that's teh word)

[31stPzrGrenadier]

It possible, but it has to be a vetted gren with LMG and you must have ZEAL and in GREEN COVER to be able to slaughter scores of riflemen.

While I don't discount the possibility of this happening, I like to say it is a very very very isolated scenario.

[PPLA]

maybe BAR rifle vs kch, they won't win. I'll give u the benefit of the doubt. BUT.

2 KCH vs 3 Rifles + 2 BARS, the riflemen will DEFINTELY win.

Pop Comparison: 12 vs 15, okay slight difference in 3 pop cap here, but the riflemen will win with barely any loss so this is discounted.
Price Comparison: 640MP + 200 Muni (correct me if I'm wrong, but I NEVER buy KCH.) vs 600MP + 150 Muni. Clear winner here is the Riflemen for being cost effective and staying on the field.

that is all true but then dont rush you KCH into a group of BAR rifles there are other ways to deal with rifle's and if your stupid enough to rush then your KCH deserve to die.

[UnLimiTeD5]

Run in, set up HMG in the back, run back, kch get supressed, but rifles can not close in, kch saved, ability wasted.
Sure, an enemy 30.cal would make it easier for the rifles aswell, but it's a difference.

@ PzGren:

I saw 1 single lmg grenadier with zeal standing in yellow cover(crater) slaughter entire riflesquads charging at him. 2 in a row, not at a time, I have to admit.

And I had a vet 1 grenadier in yellow cover , supervised by an officer, killing 2 riflesquads together, charging at him, 1 with bar.
The single grenadier (accidentially used the squad to recrew a mortar) went up from around 20 to 63 experience in that game, with around 20 confirmed infantry kills.
Btw, Grenadiers can build covering sandbags everywhere on the map at any time without doctrines, Riflemen need the infantry doctrine for that.

So it all depends on the situation, BARs are versaitle, stronger than LMGs at point blank range, and have a devasting Suppression fire ability.
LMGs are stationary, but fire long bursts that do reasonable damage to infantry at all ranges, can supress with intensity, zeal, insprired assault or vet 3 (combine them )
and don't lose firepower until the last man dies.

That's a huge benefit, you can stay behind your sandbags (that you should build everywhere as axis) and blast of at charging squads.
Same with volks against Rifles, but I did quit participating in that discussion.

Actually it seems to me that allied infantry fights better in the open, charging at closes range, with no cover between them, while their mobile, rather weak tanks belong to city roads.. weird.

Sorry, that was truely offtopic.

[PPLA]

Yes ulimited u get the idea

[CommanderNewbie]

Actually it seems to me that allied infantry fights better in the open, charging at closes range, with no cover between them

My scores of dead riflemen disagree

[Thtb]

"but rifles can not close in"

Jeez to bad you cant right click, I mean shit now it all makes sense ...

[UnLimiTeD5]

Good you read everything before you make your comments 
Vollhonk...

I said something about the MG42 in the back, you know?
Oh, you don't?
Game over, read again.

[Snarks]

maybe BAR rifle vs kch, they won't win. I'll give u the benefit of the doubt. BUT.

2 KCH vs 3 Rifles + 2 BARS, the riflemen will DEFINTELY win.

Pop Comparison: 12 vs 15, okay slight difference in 3 pop cap here, but the riflemen will win with barely any loss so this is discounted.
Price Comparison: 640MP + 200 Muni (correct me if I'm wrong, but I NEVER buy KCH.) vs 600MP + 150 Muni. Clear winner here is the Riflemen for being cost effective and staying on the field.

Both unvetted, both without any doctrine ability boost.

Actually, combined arms won it for the Allies there. Instead of just using pure KCH, the Allied player used a combination of SF from the BARs and then proceeded to force the KCH to retreat with the unupgraded Riflemen squad. So instead of the Axis player using 2 KCH squad and charging them at BARs, they could have used a MG42 to suppress the Riflemen and then move in for the kill with the KCH.

It seems people have forgotten that combined arms doesn't mean using multiple different units. It also applies to using weapons upgrade. Another example is SF + a Grenade/Offmap Howitzer/Sherman Crab Flail.

[Wildfire]

and freakin lmg's still suppress without an ability, so stop.

[Unkn0wn]

and freakin lmg's still suppress without an ability, so stop.

Barely and only at close range or with vet 3.

[Thtb]

+Terror CP ablity, at best.


Wildfire... Please try to get your facts straight. We sure appriciate that you take part in the balance discussions, but a bit more overview woud help.

[Falcon333]

and freakin lmg's still suppress without an ability, so stop.

Barely and only at close range or with vet 3.

If you have multiple LMGs you can get suppressed quite quickly. (I think the LMG suppresses in a small area, doesn't it?)

[Wildfire]

+Terror CP ablity, at best.


Wildfire... Please try to get your facts straight. We sure appriciate that you take part in the balance discussions, but a bit more overview woud help.

no its not terror. I just played a game where I got suppressed by 2 lmg squads on a blitz player. If you combine the lmg with any other type of mg be it on a tank, or even coaxial you get suppressed quite easily. I am getting my facts straight, I'm going from game play experience.

Also, lmg's are superior to bars in the fact that once you drop a bar, you lose the suppression ability yet lmgs can still suppress infantry.

and since some of you lovely people love your freakin stats, here.

ok, the suppression of the lmg is .0015 long, .003 med and .006 short but the nearby suppression multiplier is .75 (radius is 12) so that means that the more lmg's you have around, the suppression rate goes up.

bar is .25 & 2 by comparison.

the suppression modifer is x10 so pu tthat with .002 .0035 & .0075 on the bar by itself and you get

.02 L
.035 M
.075 S

but with lmgs it doesnt only take into account the lmg and any other lmgs but all other mguns that deal suppresion as well, including coaxial, .50 cal on tanks, .50 hmg, and even other guns and you could easily even with just a bunch of infantry squads and one or two lmg's get a god suppression going and pin a rifle squad easy, which is what has happened to me.

BAR's are good where they are, for god sakes, the allies only get 1 gun upgrade for their infantry, the axis can have mp40's and lmg's, then you have the fact that yhou can buy fausts on volks and double schrecks on grenchs, the awesomeness of kch  and other stuff I wont go into here.

the fact is, 75mu is just fine for the bar. I rately have more than 10 in a company and even that is stretching it. Right now I think i have about 8-10 not sure.

I"ve also seen of late axis players learing how to counter bar suppression so obviously its not that big of a pwn gun because sometimes i activate it and they run out of range b4 i can suppress and with the long cool down and the decrease in accuracy vs the fact the lmg can suppress and lose no accuracy or damage that its dealing and its obvious the bar is inferior.

leave my freakin bar alone.

I just want to know one thing and this shoudl easily fix it. You see a bar and an lmg on the ground next to each other and you've got one slot on your infantry unit (and no others around to pick the other up as well)  which will you choose, the LMG or the BAR? I'm sure the majorityu of you will pick the LMG, why? Because it's still useful even after dropped, the BAR loses its main feature once dropped.

same thing with bazooka and schreck. The axis inf weapons are better than the allies point blank and we all know that, so i wish you freakin axis players would quit bitchin about allied weapons when we get one freakin thing thats better than you. You've got your damn tanks, your infantry, the pak , better suppression on the hmg, your mortars do more damage and have longer range, your damn rocket artillery can randomly take down a freakin building in one lucky ass shot killing all inside (have lost 2 vet 2 hmgs to a single rocket in full health buildings in 2 diff games)

leave the allied stuff along, we're already suffering.

[Wildfire]

Wildfire... Please try to get your facts straight. We sure appriciate that you take part in the balance discussions, but a bit more overview woud help.

oh and thtb if u did'nt realize it, wildfire = krazytym = tymathee.

[31stPzGren]

Actually, combined arms won it for the Allies there. Instead of just using pure KCH, the Allied player used a combination of SF from the BARs and then proceeded to force the KCH to retreat with the unupgraded Riflemen squad. So instead of the Axis player using 2 KCH squad and charging them at BARs, they could have used a MG42 to suppress the Riflemen and then move in for the kill with the KCH.

It seems people have forgotten that combined arms doesn't mean using multiple different units. It also applies to using weapons upgrade. Another example is SF + a Grenade/Offmap Howitzer/Sherman Crab Flail.

Fallacy fallacy fallacy.

MG42 are not a mobile platform. Mg42 cannot pick up weapons. Mg42 can suppress but needs to set up.

I'm using a simple head on scenario which happens rather often.

Its easier to micro 3 rifles + 2 bars anyway compared to KCH + MG42.

[Mysthalin]

I had an airborne squad in light cover get suppressed by 2 LMGs firing at it at medium range within 2-3 seconds and within 5 it was down to 2man .
BARs are inferior to the LMG(as a weapon overall), I quite believe that it's quite balanced right now.

[UnLimiTeD5]

MG42s take around 2 seconds to setup, so they are ready to fire before the bar supression has any effect.
They have high enough range to set up behind enemy line of sight, and pwn the rifles when they try to close in to kill kch.
Microing 3 rifles is easy, but the possibilities you have with them are very limited, despite their upgrades.
1 unit, one counter.

[PPLA]

to the axis: as pointed out above LMG's are better then BARs so stop compaining!!