Adjust the Price of BARS

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[Thtb]

I dont see any urgend need to balance the bar by anything more than 5 ammo up or down, they dont seem like something "game winning" to me

Our dear... balancer ... needs... some time.... and then more. Lets dont waste it on 2end priority things.

[RedDevilNarref]

I had an airborne squad in light cover get suppressed by 2 LMGs firing at it at medium range within 2-3 seconds and within 5 it was down to 2man .
BARs are inferior to the LMG(as a weapon overall), I quite believe that it's quite balanced right now.

to have the same supression than than a BAR using it's ability with LMGs u need 13,33 LMGs , u need 8 to have the same effect than a MG42 or a Cal.30

[RedDevilNarref]

thx 

[Falcon333]

I had an airborne squad in light cover get suppressed by 2 LMGs firing at it at medium range within 2-3 seconds and within 5 it was down to 2man .
BARs are inferior to the LMG(as a weapon overall), I quite believe that it's quite balanced right now.

to have the same supression than than a BAR using it's ability with LMGs u need 13,33 LMGs , u need 8 to have the same effect than a MG42 or a Cal.30

afaik, suppression fire is supposed to suppress

[UnLimiTeD5]

Now let's do a reverse calculation.
How many BARs with activated supression fire do we need to do the same damage as an lmg.
Oh, and btw, supressed is supressed, and that is after 2 bursts.
How much that really is doesn't count.

[RedDevilNarref]

of course, i havent sayed that the bar hurts more ¿did I?    , i just read some post saying thign like "and freakin lmg's still suppress without an ability, so stop." "If you have multiple LMGs you can get suppressed quite quickly." or coaxials also supress.. i just used my calculator

[UnLimiTeD5]

The point in that post was:
With 2 lmgs you can suppress anytime, and not only when you activate an ability.

[Thtb-Ally]

So your argument is:

The Axis main hand held damage dealer weapon does more damage then the Allys Main suppresing weapon?

*Clap Clap*

[RedDevilNarref]

The point in that post was:
With 2 lmgs you can suppress anytime, and not only when you activate an ability.

ok, maybe u are right but i dont think 2 lmgs can supress anythign stroger than engeniers, i mean panther and P4 have 2 mgs (coaxial and hull) with the same values of supression at long and medium range, and i havent seen them supressing anything

[MasonDon]

LMGs suppress moderately quickly. Thats the main reason why I hate fighting them without BARs, or tanks. Also, anything could cough in the direction of engies and they would get suppressed.

[Falcon333]

LMGs suppress moderately quickly. Thats the main reason why I hate fighting them without BARs, or tanks. Also, anything could cough in the direction of engies and they would get suppressed.

In a 3v3, there will be situations where you're facing at least 3 LMGs if not more. That really adds up unless you have an MG to hold them off...

[UnLimiTeD5]

Seeing that almost 1 third (if not more) of players is terror, zeal and intensity will really bolster the lmgs supression to the point were it can supress riflesquads at medium range in 6 seconds.

So your argument is:

The Axis main hand held damage dealer weapon does more damage then the Allys Main suppresing weapon?

Actually, the Bar squad will deal more damage at short range, but for some reaswon, lmg squads turn out superior.

Basically, which I'm sure you didn't note as you always fail to see my point, I was saying that comparing the Bars supression with SF to LMGs is just like comparing the LMGs damage to Bars with SF.

It's questionable and doesn't forward the discussion.

[Wildfire]

ok, i guess someone people were too lazy to read my post. LMG's have a suppression area that if you have any other unit that has suppresion they get a .75 bonus to what they've already got, that includes the gun that's already on the gren, any other lmg etc as long as its within a 12 radius area and that's pretty big.  That's why 2 lmg's can suppress so easily, also, they dont get accuracy and damage penalties attached to it so you can suppress and still damage.

also, if you  axis are so fussy over it, do like thtb said and add 5 ammo to it to make it 80 i coudl give a damn but anything over that people stop using bars

[Jelly-Boy]

I'm going to swoop in and post some statistical information all of this can be found on COH-stats.com

First off let's compare damage between the two. BAR does 7/LMG does 5
So the BAR deals more damage? Yes, in theory.

Time to factor in additional information:
LMG burst duration is 2-1/BAR burst duration is 1.25-0.75=That means that the LMG roughly fires for about 3/4 longer then a BAR squad.
Rate of fire for the LMG is: 15-15/ BAR RoF is 7-7. So that means that in two seconds an LMG will dispense of 30 bullets and in 1.25 seconds a BAR will dispense 8.75 bullets
They both have a similar reload frequency so they will repeat this cycle at most 8 times before having to reload.
LMG cooldown is 3.5 BAR is 2.0

So lets add these up and show the difference in damage done by these two weapons.

Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 seconds,Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Reload for 6.5 seconds. So in a total of 39 seconds before reloading the drum the LMG will have fired 240 bullets, each bullet doing 5 damage for a total of 1,200 damage if everyone hits.

BAR: Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Reload or 3.5 seconds. So in 24 seconds the BAR will fire 168 bullets and deal 1,176 damage if everyone hit.

Of course not everyone would hit so lets factor in an engagement from medium distance:
LMG M accuracy: .3x240=72 bullets hitting their target x 5= 360 damage at medium range.
BAR M accuracy: .45x168=75.6 bullets hitting their target x 7= 525 damage at medium range.

Remember that this is assuming the target is shot at at the same distance for anywhere between 39-24 seconds with no cover.

You can further expand this by applying the accuracy incremental which would make the numbers look like this:
LMG M accuracy: .3x1.05^6~0.4x240=96 bullets hitting x 5=480 damage
BAR M accuracy: .45x1.02^4~0.49x168~82 bullets hitting x 7=574 damage

Now take those revised numbers and multiply the damage by .75
480x.75=360 damage for an LMG in a span of 39(s) *against Riflemen*
574x.75=430.5 damage for a BAR in a span of 24(s) *against Grens*
However I don't see this as a practical engagement so lets do these numbers for a span of 10s

LMG: Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5. Bullets fired=60
BAR: Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, plus a lil extra for .25 seconds. Bullets fired~26

Accuracy incremental: 0.4x60=24 bullets hitting for LMG/ 0.49x26=12 bullets hitting for BAR
base damage x 0.75= 5x0.75=3.75 damage per bullet for LMG/ 7x0.75=5.25 damage for a BAR

Totals: 3.75x24=90 damage in 10s for LMG/5.25x12=63 damage in 10s

So overall the BAR may deal more damage if it fires for the full 24 seconds however the rifle squad will be non-existent. That is where the LMG has the edge short engagements where it excels at. As for suppression the BAR base suppression is only .0005 higher then an LMG. Without SF a BAR would only have an edge against regular troops. This is one of the main reasons why I like LMGs over BARs. Sure they can suppress but when they are suppressing they are not killing, and their whole suppression ability is null if you are in heavy cover. Not to mention LMGs have 5 more range then a BAR, get better the more riflemen it faces (accuracy incremental is per man..), and at short range an LMG lands 75% of its 30 round burst. So guys, please stop bitching about the BAR, right now it is fine, it adds a little bit of fire power and if you aren't a retard only 1 squad at max will get suppressed and die/retreat as long as you don't blob. Don't blame the game if you are having 4 squads all blobbed together suppressed and run off the field.

[Jelly-Boy]

The above post is me...Bodybag...

And tym brings up a good point about the Nearby Supp. Multiplier. Basically the more LMGs you have firing at something the more nearby (men or squads, I don't know, I think squads) get suppressed. Range of that is 12 which is pretty big too.

[salan]

nice post jellybag!

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

I had an airborne squad in light cover get suppressed by 2 LMGs firing at it at medium range within 2-3 seconds and within 5 it was down to 2man .
BARs are inferior to the LMG(as a weapon overall), I quite believe that it's quite balanced right now.

to have the same supression than than a BAR using it's ability with LMGs u need 13,33 LMGs , u need 8 to have the same effect than a MG42 or a Cal.30

Remember that you don't need to do the same amount of suppression as a BAR to suppress, the BAR SF is an OD amount of suppression to nullify any outside conflicts.

nice post jellybag!

Yeah, I need to go write a 3 page essay now.....

[Snarks]

Fallacy fallacy fallacy.

MG42 are not a mobile platform. Mg42 cannot pick up weapons. Mg42 can suppress but needs to set up.

I'm using a simple head on scenario which happens rather often.

Its easier to micro 3 rifles + 2 bars anyway compared to KCH + MG42.

It's also easier to micro 2 squads of KCH than it is to micro 3 squads of Riflemen when two of them have BARs. So what? You have completely missed the point of my post which was merely stating the fact that the American player outmicroed the Axis player with the BAR Riflemen and regular Riflemen. So if the American player used better tactics, superior micro, and the appropiate counters, shouldn't they be rewarded with the KCH being forced to retreat?

[Thtb]

Micro... thats like 4 clicks if you dont use shortcuts xD

[Unkn0wn]

Shortcuts are overrated.