T4 Balance Vote Discussion

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[Tymathee]

They dont want discussion in their thread, so I'll oblige, and make my own thread to talk about it cuz I feel we need good dialogue on this issue.

I agree on some of these but some of this stuff makes the T4's not T4's anymore, but T2's or T3's.

The T4 is supposed to be pretty amazing and a game changer if you have one.

One thing that I've always had an issue with concerning T4's, is that the infantry company is the only one where you can't get a T4 right off the bat with 50 cp's. Hell, even what some feel is the weakest T4 in the game, Cohesion (no one uses, thats why i say that) takes 56 cp to get to, stacked 54, reapers, 55, Arty Expertise 51.

---------------------

T4 Artilley: take off the decreased time (back to 3 seconds)

What it is now isn't much, it's only 1 second, it's not really a big deal and the spread is so high that it doesn't always hit what you aim at anyway. It's still a crap shoot

Tank Reapers: Decrease effects to 25%, extend effect to Bazookas (Stickies maybe?)

Effects to 25%, no. Health is no big deal to me, you can take that away but to put it down to 25% will just make it a low level upgrade and not be the tank killer that it's supposed to be. The axis have a lot of stuff that can wtf pwn tanks and the allies get one and you want to decrease it by 50%? Come on give me a break. Anyone that's ever been pwned by a cloaked pak with a supervising offer and fatherland defense on it knows what I mean. The allies need something with tank killing power and this is the only thing we get, other than that, the allies need to try and use major micro and high numbers to take out axis armor. Just yesterday, i had to use 4 rangers just to try and take out a tiger and almost got them all killed and hell, in the process, it still took out a sherman.

How about this? 70% penetration, 25% damage, 25% health on at guns and you 50% penetration and 25% damage on zooks? What this basically does is make it so that AT guns become what they are with the ap rounds upgrade without having to buy it, and zooks can actually penetrate front armor, sometimes, which is more times than hardly ever.

Airborne

Air Supririorty: Decrease uses of all 3 offmaps by 1

That's fine but then it wouldn't really be air superiority then...

Raid Assault: Reduce HP bonus

why, it's only 50%? and it's only for 100s. The first time they use it, you'll know they've got it and you could avoid it from then on. bring out lmg's, kch, flame wagons, ostwinds etc and no problem.

Axis

Terror

Subversion: Reduce sabotage effect to 1

Ok, so they only get 2 total? that's not very powerful, and the effect is only 4 total, so if you're playing 2v2, maybe one person gets them all, maybe 3/1, maybe 2/2. No change needed here, it's a T4, it's supposed to be wtfhepwnedme

Defensive

Ominscience: Decrease to "Increase sight range by 15%"

yea it's powerful but at 40% it's supposed to be powerful. Maybe 25%, 30%? You dont really see a lot of people get this, most people get the other 3 as they're more powerful.

Tenacious Faith: Decrease cost to 10%

The allies can get up to a total of 35% off their infantry with 3 t3's, 20% on a t3 for rifles and rangers and 15% on support teams. So, to decrease the cost to 10% makes this a T2.

[CaptainAxis]

-T4 artillery is instant kill. Enough said.
-I think I speak for most of the axis players. Tank reapers is off the charts insane. It ruin the axis's main advantage of heavy armour entirely. One single T4 reducing the effectiveness of an entire faction's ability to attack is broken.

-Air supriority:
Let me show you this mathamatically from a team strategy that Myself, Louis and chubba had.
3x Air Superiority:
18 Recons/ 15 Strafes/ 12 Bombs

-Subversion:
Personally, I would like this whole Tree re-worked. But we all know its not gonna happen. again. Team strat, 3 x Subversion ruins games. I mean, I paid the points cost for the unit. Why am I being denied it? Especially true with very high cost units ie. Rangers/Pershings
 
-I agree with you on Tenacious faith.

-Omniscience even at 30% is too much. When two bikes deny the opposition any opportunity to surprise or flank a position, its not fun.


T4s are supposed to be good and making your company effective, but when it ruins gameplay its wrong. In my opinion i see no reason why T4s should remain as "awesome" as it used to be.

Primarily because:

1) it was designed for the Old Eir when CPs truely needed to be earned. IE, you start with no CPs and you earned your T4 through the war (Which was shorter. This free 50 start CP kills that concept, especially since you can T4s so much sooner.
2) It shouldn't totally change how the game is played; thats how imbalance issues occurs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen from OMG this issue is acknowledged and I've yet to see Tier abilities that drastically increase damage output or unit cost the way EIR T4s do.

[snipes]

lol? t4's ruin gameplay? it increses you ability to do stuff based on whatever it buffs,? and tenacious faith is a big mistake leave that tree as it is its based on better vet infantry and lower costs

[donnieDark]

t4 arty does not guarantee an instant kill on anything.  Ive seen mortars and pak guns escape it unscratched.     It does however work great on blobbers.

[Sach]

in the current climate of cheap lmgs, low mp and common armor skirts, nerfing raid assault seems harsh.

[Tymathee]

t4 arty isn't insta kill, Maybe on infantry yeah but you know what, in war, you dont see artillery coming, the enemy doesn't drop smoke, you hear it coming. With the smoke and 3 seconds and the fact that the artillery goes longer, it would be a wasted ability, Maybe you kill that church that you wouldnt' before, but that isnt' that much of a bonus.

and im guessing you're an axis player by your name. Play as allies vs cloaked pak guns. All you need is two placed in the right position and any allied armor that tries to get through that area will get pwned because 1. they're cloaked 2. they have hold fire, so basically one can fire, make you try and go around it and then the 2nd will kill you.
Tank reapers doesn't neutralize axis armor, you can still circle strafe it or get away from it the same as before. i'd rather have a regular pak personally than a TR AT gun personally. Just more you can do with it, like pak snipe other at g uns, 88's, sneak up on an artillery unit and kill it, cloak and wait until a tank passes and hit it in the butt, etc. Reapers still gets screwed up by the at guns bad accuracy.

to the 50cps, this was added because if new players come in and start from 0 cp's, they're at a serious imbalance say vs a guy who had 100 cp's from playing the last 3 months. I don't even have a Tier 4, I had 2 tier 3's and am working on a 4 and i'm 6-5, it's not totally needed but once you get it, you can be pretty tough. If you notice, wh en you get a T4, your name changes from just "infantry division" to "blah blah divison" meaning, you specialize. Yeah some of them are really powerful, but that's what makes working for them worth it. If you make some of them too weak because you feel they're too powerful, then you lose the thrill of getting one.

I get really upset when teh allied abilities that make us competitive get questioned because we are actually doing well now. Yeah some of them need to be changed and tweaked, and eirrmod is in the process of doing so but i just hope he doesn't do so cuz of whiners (not calling you one) but because it's needed.

[Tymathee]

t4 arty does not guarantee an instant kill on anything.  Ive seen mortars and pak guns escape it unscratched.     It does however work great on blobbers.

I agree and fucking axis mortar's can insta kill 2-3 rifle squads or a whole house with heavy support.

[CommanderNewbie]

I agree and fucking axis mortar's can insta kill 2-3 rifle squads or a whole house with heavy support.

I'm not sure you understand how the heavy support T4 works.  Dare I say, you shouldn't comment on things you don't understand.

[UnLimiTeD2]

How is it hard to understand how heavy support works?
It increases range, hitpoints and sight.

I think subversion would be better off just delaying those troops for 30 minutes.
And Tenacious Faith should be reduced to 25%.

But not really much, they are quite balanced.

Tank reapers is boring, I would like something along the lines of:
+20% accuracy and damage on Bazookas and ATGs.
AP rounds (ATG and HMG) are 50% more potent and last 50% longer.
ATGs (gun only) gain +100% Hitpoints.

Something that encourages skill.
I think omniscience isn't at all too strong.
And Air superiority might be a little powerful, maybe reducing it by one Bombing run might be fair, but not more.
As you invest 52 cps in those offmaps.

[CaptainAxis]

I've been playing both sides of the war for a year now.
My other username is nated0g. Online Profile PinkTiger.

I know exactly what its like on both sides of the argument. I dont mean to be rude, but I agree with commander newbie that it doesn't sound like you're heavily experienced on the way the axis play and the balance issues. Some of the things you mention are very situational and pendant on player skill.

The proposed changes are mentioned so that the game can be enjoyable for players of ALL levels and give your army more flavour. Advanced players can still use the T4 to their full advantage but not at the cost of newer/less-advanvced gamer's enjoyment.

[Leaph]

Agreed with Tym on all accounts, except heavy support does not have any effect on damage, its T3 does an extra 20% though. Axis mortaers can WTF if vet 3, advanced munitions, and officer supervision, yeah, but I for one have never seen that...ever.

 Terror has a T2 called german will that decreases all inf mp costs by 8%, so his saying TF would be like a T2 is quite accurate. That would bwe a very shitty T4.

Nerf Raid assault? LMG's are so cheap now it has become a tactic for people to go Weapon surplus, get 25 grens, and put an LMG on every one. You can do it for exactly 2k munitions, and probably have extra from RB's...and I'm about to play a game, continue this later, maybe

[Smithy17]

Axis:
Terror
Ferocity (Inspired Assault has increased potency, has half the negative effects, and cooldown is 8 minutes)
Heavy Support (HMGs, Mortars, Snipers, and AT guns have 50% more hp, 25% more range, and 25% more sight.)
Subversion (All enemy platoons except the first take 100%, 50%, 33%, 25% longer to deploy, Sabotage increased to 4 platoons)
German Steel (All tanks gain 30% health, 20% less received penetration) 

Defensive
Omniscience (All units gain 40% sight range and double stealth detection - replaces Advance Warning)
Rocket Artillery (gains the ability, 4 uses, 1 min cooldown)
Tenacious Faith (Support weapons, volks and grenadiers cost 30% less MP)
Fatherland Defense (All units gain 20% hp - 35% when defending)

Blitz
Weapon Surplus (mp40s, mp44s, and lmgs are all 35% less munitions)
HEAT rounds (All tanks do 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)
Conviction (Doubles the uses and duration of Blitzkrieg and removes the accuracy penalty)
Lightning War (All reinforcements arrive immediately, infantry sprint for 60 seconds and vehicles move 25% faster)

Allies:
Infantry
Stacked (Ranger and rifle upgrades are 35% off)
Tank Reapers (AT gun damage, health and penetration increased by 70%)
Cohesion (Infantry gain 2x% health where x is the number of individual soldiers the player has (max 50%))
Artillery Expertise (Increases Off-map artillery uses to 5 and doubles the number of shots per second)

Airborne
Airborne Elite (Airborne start at vet 1, 18% more health, and damage, no drift)
Raid Assault (Airborne gain 50% damage and health for the first 100 seconds after being dropped)
Aerial Brothers (Airborne squads cost 30% less MP)
Air Superiority (Increase Recon Flight to 5 uses, Strafing Run to 4 uses, Bombing Run to 3 uses.)

Armor
On-Board Mechanics (Vehicles are constantly being repaired)
Next Generation vehicles (All vehicles have 50% faster turret rotation rates, 25% less reload time)
Dual Rocket Racks (Calliope cooldown decreased by 10% and fires twice as many rockets)
Superior Command (Pop Cap increased by 30%)

I thought a list of all effects of t4s might be useful for this discussion.

Here are my thoughts.
Terror: I like Unlimited's idea of making sabatoged units turn up 30 minutes late
Maybe there should be a decrease in the health buff for heavy support - its quite large.

Defensive: Maybe remove omniscience from vehicles? would stop people complaing about bikes seeing the whole map but would still be useful on infantry.
I'm not sure why the cooldown on rocket artillary is so tiny, maybe increase it a little bit to be more in line with the infantry artillery.
I think tenacious faith is fine as it is, should only ne dropped by 5% or so if anything.
Fatherland defense, should be removed from vehicles and tanks, but maybe increase it to 25%/35% or 25%/40%.

Blitz: Nothing seems too out of place here

Infantry: Tank reapers I think we can agree needs some attention (I don't know what though).
Artillery expertise could do with some way of making it good agoinst blobs but escapable by small things - some form of suppression effect on large quantities of units close together?

Airborne:Raid assault might need a small tone down (shorter duration?)
Aerial brothers seems a bit on the weak side compared to things such as tenacious faith, maybe it should be extended to airborne at guns and/or upped a bit
Air superiority might need a strafe or bomb removed.

Armor:On-Board mechanics is quite good, does it need toning down?
Superior command is a bit powerful at the moment (as shown by what happened when it was the same cost as other t4s) probably should be nerfed a bit.

[Mysthalin_Armor]

All I can say is that most of the changes stated in the OP are blatantly retarded.
Tenacious faith is fine, needs not be nerfed. I mean, wow, just how dangerous is volks spamming? I'd seriously rather pick up rocket artilery or extra health on everything.
Tank Reapers - just nerf it to 40-50, not 25. Compare it to a well known Terror ability tree, and you find out why.
Air supperiority - sure it owns on RTC, but on a 3v3 map like ango? You ever tried strafing something on that? takes a lot of skill, luck, and praying your enemy won't notice it coming. Needs no change.
Raid assault is fine as is. Easily counterable by KCH/LMGs, and with only 8k manpower you can only get ever so much airborne.
Subversion - change it into 30 min delay, but not nerf it into 3 squads.
Omniscience - already underused as is, why should you make it do absolutely diddly shit? Wow, your motorcycle will see half a stug length worth farther, how would that be worth a T4?
To those who say "omg, three players air sup/subversion" - everything should be balanced to how effective it is in actuality, not when in a stacked team of gimmicks.

[Eleven]

Axis:
Terror
Ferocity (Inspired Assault has increased potency, has half the negative effects, and cooldown is 8 minutes)
Heavy Support (HMGs, Mortars, Snipers, and AT guns have 50% more hp, 25% more range, and 25% more sight.)
Subversion (All enemy platoons except the first take 100%, 50%, 33%, 25% longer to deploy, Sabotage increased to 4 platoons)
German Steel (All tanks gain 30% health, 20% less received penetration) 

Defensive
Omniscience (All units gain 40% sight range and double stealth detection - replaces Advance Warning)
Rocket Artillery (gains the ability, 4 uses, 1 min cooldown)
Tenacious Faith (Support weapons, volks and grenadiers cost 30% less MP)
Fatherland Defense (All units gain 20% hp - 35% when defending)

Blitz
Weapon Surplus (mp40s, mp44s, and lmgs are all 35% less munitions)
HEAT rounds (All tanks do 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)
Conviction (Doubles the uses and duration of Blitzkrieg and removes the accuracy penalty)
Lightning War (All reinforcements arrive immediately, infantry sprint for 60 seconds and vehicles move 25% faster)

Allies:
Infantry
Stacked (Ranger and rifle upgrades are 35% off)
Tank Reapers (AT gun damage, health and penetration increased by 70%)
Cohesion (Infantry gain 2x% health where x is the number of individual soldiers the player has (max 50%))
Artillery Expertise (Increases Off-map artillery uses to 5 and doubles the number of shots per second)

Airborne
Airborne Elite (Airborne start at vet 1, 18% more health, and damage, no drift)
Raid Assault (Airborne gain 50% damage and health for the first 100 seconds after being dropped)
Aerial Brothers (Airborne squads cost 30% less MP)
Air Superiority (Increase Recon Flight to 5 uses, Strafing Run to 4 uses, Bombing Run to 3 uses.)

Armor
On-Board Mechanics (Vehicles are constantly being repaired)
Next Generation vehicles (All vehicles have 50% faster turret rotation rates, 25% less reload time)
Dual Rocket Racks (Calliope cooldown decreased by 10% and fires twice as many rockets)
Superior Command (Pop Cap increased by 30%)

Ferocity: This pretty much blows. It's useless.
Heavy Support: I don't know if the sight is really necessary. It's a good t4 though. Not OP.
Subversion: I hate that this is in the same tree as KT. They have very little synergy. It's a good t4 though.
German Steel: Pimp.

Omniscience: Hey let's have a slightly more useful ability than Scouting, only it'll be a t4! Buff plz.
Rocket Arty: Awesome beyond recognition. Could use a sliiiight cooldown increase.
Tenacious Faith: T4s that reduce costs are kinda lame. Useful, but lame.
Fatherland Defense: As pimp as German Steel.

Weapons Surplus: Same as Tenacious Faith.
HEAT: Neat. 15% pen is stupid I think. Stugs are beat since they cost so much now and everything else will already tear Sherman armor.
Conviction: Awesome. Balanced.
Lightning War: The coolest goddamn T4. This is what a t4 needs to look like. Global, useful effects.

Stacked: See Tenacious Faith. Useless IMO especially because of BARs being so cheap already. I buy full SMGs without Stacked, grenades stupid blah blah.
Tank Reapers: Godly, but a stupid T4. Opposite of global =(
Cohesion: Fuck you haters who think this is bad. I could rape with this in my current inf build.

Airborne Elite: The no drift seals the deal here. Without that this t4 is iffy.
Raid Assault: Rape, but I'd like to see more utility. I guess you can't have everything.
Aerial Brothers: I don't like it. People think Airborne are all Airborne has as a doctrine.
Air Superiority: Magic; the ultimate utility. I remember taking names waaay back with this. Airborne is NOT just about Eagles.

I've never played Armor, but I can speculate:
On-Board: Awesome. I have seen it used well.
Next-Gen: Retarded. Change this to something unretarded.
Calliope: Stupid stupid stupid. T4s that affect one unit are dumb. This one is even dumber.
Superior Command: Good, but it should be dumbed down and made into this tree's t3. T4 should be something more significant.

[UnLimiTeD2]

I think I always proposed a different doctrine system, but I won't link it here.
I'm also of the oppinion that E will fix this in a different way anyways, hopefully at the end of the war (plz. give axis some more territories, maybe 200?); So this will be moot anyways.

But I'll rate the doctrines out of my way.

1. I agree cost reducing T4s are kinda stupid.

2.  :

Ferocity: Awesome ability, works great on snipers, strenghtens Volks and PAKs, allows single shrecks to kill Tanks in seconds.
But it's true strengh is it stacks with zeal, an ability overpowered for a T2.
Limited use, though.
Heavy Support: Could use less HP bonus, awesome T4 otherwise, if used right.
Subversion: pure grief, not a nice ability. Should be delay only.
German Steel:

Pimp.

Omniscience: Potentially very powerful, but requires teamplay and depends on the enemy tactics.
Rocket Artillery: too short cooldown, a nice T4 otherwise
Tenacious Faith: Too strong, 25% would be sufficient
Fatherland Defense:

Pimp.

Weapon Surplus: Allows for cheap MP40s and makes StGs actually viable. Boring, though.
HEAT rounds: Allows P4s and Tigers to effectively bash away Infantry. Useful allround T4.
Conviction: Nice, usebased ability, slightly skilldependant, very useful
Lightning War: A great ability with certain uses, balanced through it's lack of combat bonuses.

Infantry
Stacked: Boring, see Weapon Surplus.
Tank Reapers: Awesome and beyond, epic to the point of annoyance. Imba.
Cohesion: The most underestimated tier ability ever.
Artillery Expertise: Too strong with the short timer, but a nice addition.

Airborne
Airborne: Elite No drift.
Raid Assault: In my oppinion too strong and short, not skill dependant. Not imbalanced, though.
Aerial Brothers: Actually the best cost reducing T4, should affect ABATGs, though.
Encourages spamming.
Air Superiority: Very powerful. Too many offmaps in total, but an entire tree deserves that epicness.

Armor
On-Board Mechanics: Annoying, overpowered. Should only work in friendly territory outside of combat.
Next Generation vehicles: Rather weak compared to onboards, it has it's uses.
Increases Tank DPS...
Dual Rocket Racks: Fine ability, strong, but counterable.
Superior Command: Suffers from the corresponding T3, stacking of both makes it overpowered.

[PrydainAxis]

Keep tank reapers the same, I never loose a game as allied because of it.

I WANT OP!!!

[gungun.]

tank reapers are weak , buff them to 100% !

[Schultz]

tank reapers are weak , buff them to 100% !

I second that. :p

They should be able to wtfpwn a panther from the front with one shot!

[snipes]

not that they already can wtf 2 shot a stug from the frontal armor

[donnieDark]

Tank reapers is a joke vs volk spam