Adjust price recoilles rifle

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[BlackBanana]

Andy stats say how the weapons are effective. Then you can analize the units which use the weapons, the targets, and so on. I think that vcoh balance has something to deal with mod balance. In fact 125 mu for two recoilles and 150 for two schreks could be in EiR 110 each schreck and 175-200 recoilless

[Leaph]

Come to think of it, the massive decrease in price in LMG's, as well as the decreased req's for skirts and Mounted MG's, also indirectly nerfs RR's.

[Unkn0wn]

Only the sideskirt decreased req. can truly be seen as an 'indirect nerf' to RR effectiveness though.

[Wolster]

Please remember the Shreks r on 4 man easy kill squads vs 6 man we shrug off everything u throw at us squads before u start to compare the costs, half the time I gift the enemy my shrecks cause my squad is gibbed off the first hits it receives.

[GamerAndy]

Andy stats say how the weapons are effective. Then you can analize the units which use the weapons, the targets, and so on. I think that vcoh balance has something to deal with mod balance. In fact 125 mu for two recoilles and 150 for two schreks could be in EiR 110 each schreck and 175-200 recoilless

I'm talking about stats Just different ones than you're familiar with
For an explanation of the below numbers and why they make the recoilless rifle freaking uber please read
http://www.coh-stats.com/basics/scatter.html
be aware, its decently technical

                            Panzerschrek                                       Recoilless Rifle
Scatter Angle         15                                                       5
Scatter Max           20                                                       15
Scatter Offset        .1                                                        1
Scatter Ratio         .5                                                        .6

[notenome]

Schreks have a setup time and RRs dont. That means that schreks cant chase tanks (which RRs can) and that tanks can run over schreks squads easily by taking advantage of infantry pathing stupidity (it runs over the soldier with schrek a new one has to setup ad infinitum). Also long range accuracy for schreks is HORRIBLE.

[MysthalinTLS]

Without taking in consideration scatter - Shreks hit just as well as RRs at long, and even better at medium range(and close range, as it's a longer "distance" for the close range attack on the shreck).
However, even though it may seem the RR is uber pwning because of the scatter table, here's a little tipbit. When the weapon is calculated as a "miss" and the only reason it hits is because of the low scatter... the damage is nerfed. Epically. By around 50 percent(yeah, that's why you sometimes get mislead when 2 Raid Assault RRs first inflict only minor damage, then they fire again and your tank is at half health). Happens to shreks too, though extremely more rare.

To test it - do attack ground orders on friendly tanks to see just how much damage will be dealt(or put up a friendly tank right up against an enemy one(make them have sex), and hit from the side your tank is positioned - (un)luckily, the extremely minor splash radius will be enough and both tanks will be injured by the blast of the weapon - you'll get the how much less damage is dealt to the friendly tank, however that could be full dmg due to the fact there would be a hit calculated).

And seeing how much LMG's rape airborne..... Yes, LMG cost decrease IS an indirect nerf to RRs.

[GamerAndy]

Without taking in consideration scatter - Shreks hit just as well as RRs at long, and even better at medium range(and close range, as it's a longer "distance" for the close range attack on the shreck).
However, even though it may seem the RR is uber pwning because of the scatter table, here's a little tipbit. When the weapon is calculated as a "miss" and the only reason it hits is because of the low scatter... the damage is nerfed. Epically. By around 50 percent(yeah, that's why you sometimes get mislead when 2 Raid Assault RRs first inflict only minor damage, then they fire again and your tank is at half health). Happens to shreks too, though extremely more rare.

uh, I think you're confusing critical hits with rolled hits.........   I've never seen any evidence either in stats or in practice that there is any reason or difference between a rolled hit or a physics hit on handheld AT weapons or tank shots

proof plz?

[BlackBanana]

I think Mysthalin is right, when they hit due to scatter angle they do less damage, it has nothing to do with penetration or anything else. And yes 80 munition lmgs is big bullshit too.

[RedDevilNarref]

RRs have a good price, they are in a 6 men squad, that comes wherever in the map, and as fire up, also they are much cheaper than shreks, and can kill easyle any axis tank, anyway u can't use it as ur only AT weapon, decreasing it's price would become in airborne spam companies, just because they can kill everything.

[Wildfire]

I'd have to agree that the low price of lmgs make it tough on airborne. It'd be nice if Ab actually got gun upgrades or if the RR had an HE option cuz the nades just cost too damn much.

but anyway. im too tired to make a real valid argument.

[Wildfire]

RRs have a good price, they are in a 6 men squad, that comes wherever in the map, and as fire up, also they are much cheaper than shreks, and can kill easyle any axis tank, anyway u can't use it as ur only AT weapon, decreasing it's price would become in airborne spam companies, just because they can kill everything.

maybe but i see plenety axis use schecks as their only AT weapon.

[stumpster]

I'm damned positive that Andy is correct.  Shots that are a physical hit, but a rolled miss, still do the same damage as a rolled hit.  There aren't damage modifiers for a physical hit.

[Hoarder]

Also positive that Andy is correct. The reason that the allied tank took less damage from splash is because each weapon has different modifiers for both friendly and enemy splash damage. Nobody ever bothers to talk about the friendly most of the time, since you shouldn't be shooting friendly troops anyway, but it is there.

Also, any buff to the axis is atleast to some degree a nerf to the allies. For instance, buffing Schrek damage gives them a direct buff (duh), which is an indirect nerf to allied tanks, which is an indirect, third degree buff to say, KCH, since they are only really vulnerable to tanks. That is a stretch, but buffing the direct counter to a unit (LMG cost) is very much a nerf to AB, and thus the weapons and upgrades they carry (RR's).

[Unkn0wn]

That's all nice in theory but for actual balancing to take place, going beyond first-degree indirect nerfs would be absolute madness.
Because in 2nd or 3d degree most units and upgrades are all 'connected' and a price change on just one unit/upgrade would mean price changes being 'justified' on a wide variety of units.

Therefore 2nd and 3d degree indirect nerfs are absolutely irrelevant in balance discussions.

The only relevant 'indirect' nerf here is that sideskirts mean an overall decrease in the effectiveness of RRs as they reduce the effects of all manpacked AT by roughly 50%.

[arsonist123]

All I have to say is...


Recoiless rifles are great weapons.. I wouldn't complain about there pricing, seeing as panzerschrecks were made before the RR. 

Were thinking the recoiless that only misses if your dumb enough to miss?

In all my time of playing COH, I have never missed a shot with an RR, although I miss just about 25% of the time with shrecks.

Side note: I like how germans cower like crazy with RR rather then an AT gun or a shrek, isn't that an added bonus?

[Pak88mm]

They are ok. Remember once axis tanks get vet 3 or even 2 RRs lose their value.  Vet 3 tanks just laugh em off.

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

Andy is correct, you don't magically do less damage because you rolled a miss.

[UnLimiTeD2]

Wrong, Unknown, it's not in balance discussions on public forums, but for balance itself, even a 15th degree nerf is important.
Btw, RRs should never go below 200 as they got godly penetration against heavy tanks and nearly never miss if they are not accidentially fighting a Puma.
Oh, and Pak has a point, fight a vet 2 P4 with RRs, it will likely win.

[Leaflar]

I wouldn't really say balancing on the premise of 2nd and 3rd degree nerfs is needed, but the first indirect nerf should be, that is the LMG. Pumas are the hard vehicle counter to AB, LMG grens are the hard infantry counter. Thus a buff to LMG's very much affects AB.

Anyway, RR's should still probably be above the price of storm schreks, but 50 munitions more is a bit prohibitive. You only start with 2000 munitions, so you only start with enough munitions for 9 RR's. That means no support weapons or upgrades.

Really I'm in favour of leaving RR's where they are and just reverting the tanks and LMG's back. Vet 3 for tanks doesn't even do anything anymore. LMG's used to be more expensive than schreks, suddenly they are now 30 munitions less? Doesn't make much sense.