The Humble Marder

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[Lt_Apollo]

further more you both are blatantly ingnoring his agument and twisting the subject of this thread. it is a know problem that the PE lack AT capabilitys that can counter american tank rushes. if you can not see that you live in a fantisy world. the PE main AT should not struggle to defeat a basic tank in long-mid range combat, the marder is simply not a realistic counter to poplular american tank stratagy.
i dont mean the marder should be a insta kill tank but it should at least fufill its combat role effectivly as a TANK HUNTER.

[scrapking]

Stop crying over imaginary spilled milk.

PE are fine, and its already crossed my mind that they are closer to OP than anything else - and that opinion was formed while I was playing as them.

[Lt_Apollo]

once again you ignor the aperant weekness of the PEs main AT. in my experance the marder has been shown to be an inefective counter to tanks and until it is fixed we are forced to rely on other unreliable AT weapons. one thing i must say though, it dose its job at scaring of tanks but it still can not effectivly conter them.

[Akranadas]

PE aren't about having a Main Unit to do something, they are about the parts acting as a whole. It's about pairing units that complement each other to make up for their shortcomings.

Marder + AT Halftrack,
Marder + Shrecks
Marder + P4

[VariantThirteen]

PE aren't about having a Main Unit to do something, they are about the parts acting as a whole. It's about pairing units that complement each other to make up for their shortcomings.

Marder + AT Halftrack,
Marder + Shrecks
Marder + P4

If this is the case, then reduce their pop requirements so that I can field something to complement them without negating my ability to pursue other objectives. For the pop you can put a Marder out, a Wehr/US player could put out two AT guns which is more than sufficient for non-exceptional AT requirements (lolshermanspam).

Also, I refute that a PIV is a suitable unit to complement a Marder in AT duties - they complement each other well, but not for AT. Small squad sizes and the lack of reliable sniper counters make Shreks highly undesirable, and the ATHT, while undeniably imbalanced in some ways, is seriously lacking in the attrition style AT Anchor play that EiR seems to favour. The one thing not mentioned are mines. I favour mines to supplementary AT as support for my Marder for the psychological effect they will have on future tank use against my seemingly vulnerable Marers, however they are not very cost effective, and munitions halftracks are have some usefulness issues.

[Lt_Apollo]

i am fully aware of this ark and i am shure that MannfredvonRitter relises this to, but the fact remains that this unit is not coast effective in the relation to current american armour prices and aviability.

i still beleave the main gun needs a boost or the unit need a cost reduction.

[CafeMilani]

further more you both are blatantly ingnoring his agument and twisting the subject of this thread. it is a know problem that the PE lack AT capabilitys that can counter american tank rushes. if you can not see that you live in a fantisy world. the PE main AT should not struggle to defeat a basic tank in long-mid range combat, the marder is simply not a realistic counter to poplular american tank stratagy.
i dont mean the marder should be a insta kill tank but it should at least fufill its combat role effectivly as a TANK HUNTER.

as i already said: treadbraker should be TREADBRAKING, or the marder is useless because its easily circlestrafed

[Sach]

A. Why  is there a comparison between a sherman and a marder? Why don't we compare a croc with a panther too just for giggles?

B. Marders can move. Why in none of these marder v tank scenarios does the marder never back up and use another unit to help.

ie. Marder + kettenkrad = 9 pop

sherman = 12 pop

Think about it for a bit and tell me who wins.

[Akranadas]

If your marder gets circle strafed by a damaged engine tank, your doing something wrong.

[Schultz]

PE aren't about having a Main Unit to do something, they are about the parts acting as a whole. It's about pairing units that complement each other to make up for their shortcomings.

Marder + AT Halftrack,
Marder + Shrecks
Marder + P4

If this is the case, then reduce their pop requirements so that I can field something to complement them without negating my ability to pursue other objectives. For the pop you can put a Marder out, a Wehr/US player could put out two AT guns which is more than sufficient for non-exceptional AT requirements (lolshermanspam).

Also, I refute that a PIV is a suitable unit to complement a Marder in AT duties - they complement each other well, but not for AT. Small squad sizes and the lack of reliable sniper counters make Shreks highly undesirable, and the ATHT, while undeniably imbalanced in some ways, is seriously lacking in the attrition style AT Anchor play that EiR seems to favour. The one thing not mentioned are mines. I favour mines to supplementary AT as support for my Marder for the psychological effect they will have on future tank use against my seemingly vulnerable Marers, however they are not very cost effective, and munitions halftracks are have some usefulness issues.

Actually thats pretty good VariantThirteen. Thats sums up how i see things as well.

[BigDick]

Marders three shot shermans. That's not enough AT? Not to mention instant imobilization AT hts. Honestly, you should not have ANY problems with AT with PE.

i dont know what to say to someone like you....you got at least 10 times told that there is no damage modifier of marder against us armour anymore

and that the AT halftrack does no insta imobilization anymore

actually it is a 275MP 50 fuel 95 muni sticki only unit because it gots the damage table of a sticki

I didn't say I have 3 Marders on field, i said I have 3 Marders in total. Marders are capped at 3,  however, Shermans are capped at 4. ATG's I believe at 3. Shermans are dual capability, ATG's are specialised, but double as effective as Marders (same range, harder to kill).

With the removal of pak sniping ATG's are now drastically more powerful. And for only 4 pop much easier to support, all you need is a sticky rifleman, and he can still fight/cap.

they can field 4 AT guns and 4 shermans without PP costs
and it is highly recommend to field 4 at guns as us player because as 110 muni no fuel and only 4 pop unit remenable they are awesome AT units

I haven't seen a single valid argument from you in this entire thread pertaining to alleged PE inferiority.  Only something about how long it takes for a Marder to kill a Sherman or some such nonsense.

You      are     forgetting     all     of    your     other     units.


U S E    T H E M.

marders are mobile at guns (that can get sniped by using AT guns fix?)  with a fuel cost because its mobility

you can have 3 but unfortunately (if u play like pe is mmeant to play using high specialized halftracks) you have no fuel for panther or hetzer or jagdpanther....

tell me of the other awesome at units you can field with 3 marders

some singleshreck 3 men (upgradeable to 4) pe grens yes

PE aren't about having a Main Unit to do something, they are about the parts acting as a whole. It's about pairing units that complement each other to make up for their shortcomings.

Marder + AT Halftrack,
Marder + Shrecks
Marder + P4

like i wrote above...
at halftrack is nothing more then a overpriced sticki

means you can have this for 5+8=13 pop
a us player can have a sticki for 5+4=9 pop and its sticki can cap and fight infantry and is much cheaper

marder + 3 men single shrek are 205+305=510MP + 110muni + 195fuel + 13 pop
zero ai capabilities

marder+p4=fail against tanks but now you have some ai capability to protect the marder for 350MP + 300mp = 605mp + 50 muni (p4 needs skirts against inf) + 195fuel+265fuel=460fuel + 20 pop

to problem of PE is you have 3 at guns (that costs fuel) but are mobile (when not locked down) and die to everything.....and a couple of halftracks...
you have no tanks (not enough fuel left) and you have some 3 men singleshrek squads..that its

you cannot use massive supression to protect your fragile expensive AT guns (marder) against infantry and its getting easy circlestrafed and killed by tanks without possibility to remen it....

when allies rush you ...you have nothing to stop the waves.....

without a wehr player that spend you an mg42 to protect your marder and mortar
and that spend you some units to absorb damage (like wehr panzer4 stug tiger panther) you are fucked...

when they break through you have no save retreat area

[BigDick]

A. Why  is there a comparison between a sherman and a marder? Why don't we compare a croc with a panther too just for giggles?

you are totally right a sherman has AI capabilities too a marder is AT only

that make it even more worse that the hardest hardcounter of PE to tanks get beaten by them

[31stPzGren]

If the game design is flawed JUST ADMIT IT. No one's going to call for impeachment or a witch hunt.

A. Why  is there a comparison between a sherman and a marder? Why don't we compare a croc with a panther too just for giggles?

B. Marders can move. Why in none of these marder v tank scenarios does the marder never back up and use another unit to help.

ie. Marder + kettenkrad = 9 pop

sherman = 12 pop

Think about it for a bit and tell me who wins.

I'll tell you fucking flat out that Sherman wins because the sherman is more mobile than your stupid marder and ketten krad. Try microing something that can only shoot straight in a narrow angle like a stug first... and something significantly MORE retarded than the stug in movement and speed.

Even if you're a god of micro and can keep it miraculously pointed straight at the sherman while moving ur kettenkrad, at no point in time is the sherman obliged to fight head on against ur stupid marder. The "metagame" of using anti-tank to counter tanks, has always been the anti-tank unit rushing its way to engage the tanks which are flanking.

The point they trying to illustrate is that for a SPECIALISED ANTI TANK unit it is overpriced and incompetent.

Countering points given are moot.

PE aren't about having a Main Unit to do something, they are about the parts acting as a whole. It's about pairing units that complement each other to make up for their shortcomings.

Marder + AT Halftrack,
Marder + Shrecks
Marder + P4

1. AT Halftrack. For the amount of price and nerfs it has received, you expect people to use that unit reasonably? Likewise if you invested like 50% of your initial popcap into anti tank options which can't dual role and deal with infantry you're just fucked.

2. Schrecks. If you only have a Marder + Schreck, a blob of rifles mixed with some support weapons will easily overwhelm your units. If you lose that schreck, good luck to any future P4 you bring.

3. PE P4 just fails. I can't believe you even suggested that at all Akranadas. Pop cap and capability wise it just falls flat on its face. Tank rushes are common in EiR and 2 Shermans will thrash that combination even more.

Any top tier player knows the implications of all these counters you players are suggesting etc etc etc.

Kettenkrad + Marder? Why don't I just bring a jeep? Then if the marder shoots it I'll know theres a marder plus with my sight range I'll see everything!

I'll bum rush it with infantry based AT. Look! I just beat your idea with just 3 popcap!

The fact is, people have told you guys about the short coming of the new factions and possible solutions and you have chosen to ignore it.

[Schultz]

Yeah problem lies on support as seen objectively not on an individual skill basis. Pls leave this out.
Thing is you balanced PE to behave a little bit different than expected.
In vcoh they can hold their own, even without wehr support. Ask yourselves why ? Even though, the premise "pe needs a variety of AT to be successful" is correct your costs do not reflect that. They break that.

Here you have units with high pop/fuel rendering difficult to actually stand up on its own compaired to the wehr/amer who are pretty balanced by now.

[stumpster]

It's still a work in fucking progress, I don't understand how we have ignored it.

If the game design is flawed JUST ADMIT IT. No one's going to call for impeachment or a witch hunt.

Fair enough.  There were certain things that were flawed.  Trench armor, British move speed, and Treadbreaker were some of those.  Yes, Treadbreaker was fucking flawed the way it was designed in the EiR environment.  No amount of changes would remove the fact that you could damn near guarantee an immobilization, that's poor game design.  Is balance going to be this way forever?  Obviously not, we've got only one balance patch done, and have been busy getting games to report and fixing other bugs that have come up.

[VariantThirteen]

Yeah problem lies on support as seen objectively not on an individual skill basis. Pls leave this out.
Thing is you balanced PE to behave a little bit different than expected.
In vcoh they can hold their own, even without wehr support. Ask yourselves why ? Even though, the premise "pe needs a variety of AT to be successful" is correct your costs do not reflect that. They break that.

Here you have units with high pop/fuel rendering difficult to actually stand up on its own compaired to the wehr/amer who are pretty balanced by now.

Interestingly, I've always seen Marders as marginally undperpowered for their cost in vCoH. They are units that inherit so many weaknesses and flaws from their parent units that they border on being useless in a lot of very easy to create situations. At the most basic level, a Marder is just an AT gun that costs fuel, and comes from a substantially higher point on the tech tree - it gets all the AT gun's weaknesses, but all a tank's price and requirements.

At the moment, their saving grace in the PEvUS matchup is the damage bonus against TD units, but they're losing that, and they'll probably become completely superfluous to the metagame.

[Schultz]

Yeah again i will agree with you. :p
I also believe that how marder is portraited on vcoh had to do with determining its cost on eirr but you have to start somewhere.
Stumpster is right. Theres too many people screaming and calling each others idiots.
One thing the devs proved is they listen to the community and can work on things to make them better.
No need to spoil that acting like children. It's not like your voice will be heard by the numbers you say L2P.
So can everyone please relax and talk in a civilized manner ?
Anyone up for tea ?:p

[MannfredvonRitter]

The biggest issue is what PzGren said. In order to be effective your AT callin needs to be at least 12-13/25 pop. Leaving 12-13 remaining for anti infantry. I'm sorry but two squads of PE will be completely unable to fend off support weapons and infantry. Even a single range squad will kill that Anti Tank segment easily, leaving the remaining pop for pure anti infantry.

PE get owned the worst at start and then fight an uphill battle from then on in.

[gamesguy2]

The biggest issue is what PzGren said. In order to be effective your AT callin needs to be at least 12-13/25 pop. Leaving 12-13 remaining for anti infantry. I'm sorry but two squads of PE will be completely unable to fend off support weapons and infantry. Even a single range squad will kill that Anti Tank segment easily, leaving the remaining pop for pure anti infantry.

PE get owned the worst at start and then fight an uphill battle from then on in.

My PE starting call in:

1x Marder
1x FSJ with FG42s and faust
1x 4 man G43 PGs
1x Mortar HT
1x Ketten.

Sorry what?  I need 13 pop dedicated to AT for it to be effective?  I couldn't hear you over how wrong you are.

[CrazyWR]

Um, Please let me know how that start counters a double stuart start with canisters...