AXIS own ALLIES

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Draken]

IMO wehr and amis are well balanced, brits are good for supporting amis (try double brits against double wehr), PE strongest unit is ofcourse LA HT, questions to devs, maybe instead of giving tanks self destruction give them ability to retreat the crew or smth.

[salan]

There´s only 1 true imbalance in the axis faction, and it´s the lovely pio blob who everyone uses to repair.

Pio squad 2 pop cap, 110mp                = 0.5HP/S.
Panzer Grenadiers 3 pop cap, 185mp    = 0.4HP/S
Sapper 4 pop cap, 195mp                    = 0.5HP/S
Engineer 3 pop cap, 130mp                  = 0.5HP/S


Guess who has the best repairs for their pop cap and price.

thank you killer I'm going to propose a balance change on this.

[Mgallun74]

can we multi eng repair vehicles now?

[Baine]

There´s only 1 true imbalance in the axis faction, and it´s the lovely pio blob who everyone uses to repair.

Pio squad 2 pop cap, 110mp                = 0.5HP/S.
Panzer Grenadiers 3 pop cap, 185mp    = 0.4HP/S
Sapper 4 pop cap, 195mp                    = 0.5HP/S
Engineer 3 pop cap, 130mp                  = 0.5HP/S


Guess who has the best repairs for their pop cap and price.

thank you killer I'm going to propose a balance change on this.

What about this?

I would not be surprised if that is per person.  That's how repair rate is handled in the game code after all.

I just don't want things to get screwed up, because if it's per person then it looks fine, now doesn't it.

[Khorney]

several axis players i've spoken to are also of the opinion that wher are at least slightly OP. now brits have been made actually playable, the best games i've played are 3 brit vs 3 PE, which are right nail biters. in fact, the only stomp i've had was when they had a PE noob on their side which we mercilessly exploited =P (hey, they got their PP in the end anyway)

wehr on the other hand, a feeling carried over from the original EiR (as i did not use offmap, i only had 1 company before the reset, and was trying cool stuff out [airborne elite woo]) have units and abilities that just tip them over the scale of reasonable advantage. however, it's not as bad as when the doctrinal abilities were in, but as a fellow allied player put it [who had actually played wher];

allies are always playing in counter to wher, the wher's basic units are so much more effective with their options, being able to bring effective assault and AT units with any doctrine. assault infantry with MP40's or whatever can only really be effectively countered by AI tanks, which are easily dealt with by shrek infantry and ridiculous invisible PAKs. the PAKs have an incredible effect of area denial as they will almost always severly damage any tank with their 3 'free' shots if the tank is not retreated immeadiately. the tank is then not safe as it is chased up by shreck + assault infantry.

the problem with assault infantry can be somewhat countered by brits with rifle 'nade fests, but apart from fireflys they suffer from a shameful lack of mobile anti tank, and the firefly is still very supseptable to invisible PAK rape. straight brit vs straight wher is more or less GG from the get go.

i can't comment on how OP wher units are relative to their cost as i am yet to play them, but the general sentiments i get from the more moderate players is that they have a signifincantly easier time playing wehr than any other faction. one would think the best solution would be rather than give wehr amazing abilities for ridiculous costs, would be to tone down the abilities and have reasonable costs.


I'm not entirely sure how the situation can be fixed without fundimental changes to the wher faction, but, i imagine it would require cooperation and comprimise from both sides in order to achieve the most balanced environment, rather than an endless cycle of 'wher OP NERF!!' 'OMG l2p noob' which doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.

viva la revolución?

[DuckOfDoom]

I have to say, I am pretty happy with the balance, all the games I had so far were really close.

but i know why it worked so well and we totally stomped them, because the allies (duckofdoom, mudkip and an other guy) were noobs that really need to l2p and need to learn to use something other like raidbrone spam

hahahaha my sniper got 32 kills on your units you are pretty pro buddy

[Sach]

sappers particularly need a buff imo. they have no real anti inf capability, piats are weak and 4 pop makes them untenable as a repair unit.

[scrapking]

To my observations, Axis are stronger as well.  I see Axis win close to the aforementioned 80% of games in which I am a part of, whichever side I am playing.

On one hand, it is a little too soon to go making drastic changes or assumptions because of it, but now is exactly the right time to try to figure out why its happening.

One obvious thing is the introduction of British & PE to the mix.  Neither does great paired together, both do better when paired with their US & Wehrmacht counterparts.  Part of the problem is though, that putting a US player with the British makes it playable, but putting PE with Wehrmacht seems to make everything stronger.  There is a synergy between PE & Wehr that seems better even than all Wehr alone.  This hasn't yet really blossomed for British & US - whether it simply isn't as good, or relies on unlocks & doctrine abilities not yet available, or is just not as easy to figure out as PE / Wehr.

Another obvious thing is that in general, Axis units are better than their Allied counterparts - with a few exceptions only.  Allies rely on numbers advantage to counter Axis quality advantage, and the availability system along with pricing is not as conducive to that as before.  People complain about allied this spam, or that spam, when the truth is that call it whatever you want, spamming units was a necessary strategy on some level.

That is not to say that you couldn't overcome the difference with skill, but usually the German player had to have the skill to not do something dumb, while the Allied player had to have the skill to do everything right if he was not to rely on spamming cheaper, less effective units.

One answer is to verify that Axis is winning a great deal more, and if true, DEVs are already aware of it.  They can alter availability numbers, reduce or increase pricing, and despite the history - change units stats if they felt it was the correct thing to do.

Another answer is to address weakness through the actual doctrines themselves, once released - and this is most probably the correct way to go, IMO.  By the time its released, DEVs will have a really solid concept of "unbuffed" performance, and look for ways to shore up Allied weaknesses through doctrine trees while at the same time keeping Axis doctrine trees both interesting and beneficial.

[Kolath]

Another answer is to address weakness through the actual doctrines themselves, once released - and this is most probably the correct way to go, IMO.  By the time its released, DEVs will have a really solid concept of "unbuffed" performance, and look for ways to shore up Allied weaknesses through doctrine trees while at the same time keeping Axis doctrine trees both interesting and beneficial.

This is exactly what the team is doing.  But please keep up the discussion because the best way to figure out what to change is to have the whole community try it out to see what needs fixing.

[salan]

as shown in the last war with the territory counter, it also needs to be taken into effect WHO is playing what sides, against who.

A lot of the more established players are playing heavily on the axis side from my personal observations, and they are usually only playing together.

[Sach]

tbh its always been that way though since as early as i can remember, in the EU timezone particularly. Whether or not that should be taken in to account when balancing i don't know....

I think with perfect balance axis will always win the war.

[DuckOfDoom]

Seriously, my record atm is 2-6 (w/l) , but aside from 2 games which desynched and caused me the loss, my team lost by a tiny margin. As it is, I am very happy with the balance in Eir:R.

[Tymathee]

i've always harped that the wehr faction was the stronger faction. The main way the allies can beat the wehre is through attrition. Even when I win a game, there are times where I"ll have a 50-100 k/d ratio, or 70-90, more times than not, unless it was a total stomp, i'll have lost my units even in a win than the other side...and usually if they win, they'll have say, 150-50 and hell sometimes in a loss they'll h ave more kills than deaths.

I have to kind of agree with one sentiment that someone brought up earlier, which is artillery, which is something the allies seriously need to counter the axis strength. The wehr & pe gets nebels and stronger, longer range mortars, stukas, mortar ht's without having to use pp to get them, while on the other hand, the allied factions, both sides have to get PP until they hit their artillery, and since FOO is bugged, the artillery doctrine cant get artillery for at least 2-3 games.

As for allies having more offmaps...nah.
Infantry - artillery
armor - none
airborne - strafing, bombing.

brits
RCA - FOO
engineers
commando -  Decoy Artillery

terror, v1, firestorm
defensive - rocket arty
blitz - none

PE
Luftwaffe - Butterfly Bombs, herschel,
scorched earth - Sector Artillery
tank hunters - none

and thats not even counting the "click" abilities that affect your whole army of which the allies have none and the wehr have tons of. (i guess u can count field repairs but doesnt affect all units, just vehicles)

im not trying to say any side is op but just trying to point out someone's inaccuracy when it comes to artillery in this game. If anything, the axis in total will have more than the allied side total.

Then when it comes to all forms of artillery (nebel, stuka, howie, hummel, calliope, priest) the axis have shorter cooldowns, even in off maps (60 secs for rocket arty, 5 for inf artillery) I could go on n on but i think you get it, a lot of misconceptions about the allied side are false. Even before reinforcements came out early in the war when the allies were winning, several tactics that were being fussed about by the axis, weren't even viable later in the war cuz they learned to counter them and then well, the axis just went nuts and pushed the allies back. But any.

[OhSlowpoke]

I believe it's a mixture of things- I want to go over something I spoke about in an earlier thread- which was the allies 2nd rate units- I'm gonna do an indirect comparison ignoring price for the most part, and just go over the basics of German weapons versus their allied counterparts- and explain WHY the allies cannot win most combined arms battles.

Okay, lets start with Baseline Infantry, compare...

Volks (which, can use MP40s, making them highly effective at close range)
Grens (LMGs or Shreks, either AT or AI, something few allied weapons can do)

PGs (Cheap- ALL your baseline infantry can repair ranks, upgrades can stop retreating infantry)
Assault (Great Anti infantry- allies have nothing to counter them- straight on, cheap AI)
Tankbusters(Good Anti-Tank, not amazing, but good. However, they're baseline infantry, easy to get a hold of.)

---

Riflemen (Good all round units- but, not really great at anything. BAR upgrade is expensive, and reload is slow- stickbombs work well, but are unnervingly close range- and only slow most tanks they damage)

Tommy Rifles (Right now, the best Hope the allies have to counter the massive and highly effective axis infantry. Riflegrenades are the great equalizer, and brens stop axis armor for a short time. Both are expensive upgrades, Riflegrenades are "good", but their accuracy makes them highly random. Sometimes a direct hit will frag an entire axis squad, sometimes the shot will miss the squad entirely. Brens are on equal terms to BARs- good, but not great.)

Sappers (Piss-poor healing rate- although, they're cheap. PIATS are a terrible anti-tank weapon, for all it's worth- they're not unworkable, but, compared to Shreks, RRs and Bazookas, they're absolute garbage. Overrepair doesn't speed up repair enough to warrant the cost- most of the time.)

------


That comparison is only one- why compare infantry, you say? "The entire armies need to be looked at!" well- the entire armies are the same way. Axis have a large number of varied, and useful units, compare Panzer 4, Panther, Marder III, Panzer4PE, ATHT, Tiger, Tiger Ace, King Tiger, Puma, Stug and Stuh to... Sherman+Upgrade, Firefly, Cromwell, M10, and Pershing. Or, compare axis and allied support weapons (Axis have better mortars, both PE and Wher, the MG42 has longer range and better suppression than the .30 cal. Axis Pak is WAY better than the allied 57mm, due to it's cloak. Must I go on?)

The axis's problem is that they've got a larger NUMBER of units, meaning they can vary their strategy, keep us allied players on our toes, while we're forced to use the same half-assed units, in situations where they're almost ensured we'll loose, 9 times out of ten.

The great equalizer before was the superiority of the allied tech-trees (everything from tank reapers to vet Airborne), not to mention the NEW allied tech trees (which must include supercharge shells, counter battery fire for arty, as well as improved emplacements, or the addition of the commando arsenal. (which may or may not include the ability to see units being called onto the field. Not triangulation, but deciphering.) And, of course, the huge bonuses that allied arty gave, in vanilla, or this.

The inherent problem of this is that allied players are forced to win with strategies that they can come up with- which includes using whatever weapons are overpowered on their own side- or at the very least, weapons that can compete. (such as AB spam, or the recent inclusion of the giant British doom-mobs.)

[Flashpoint Gold]

Okay, lets start with Baseline Infantry, compare...

Volks (which, can use MP40s, making them highly effective at close range, die easily)
Grens (LMGs or Shreks, either AT or AI, something few allied weapons can do, which are expensive expensive expensive)

PGs (Cheap- ALL your baseline infantry can repair ranks, upgrades can stop retreating infantry, easily killed and snipers rape them)
Assault (Great Anti infantry- allies have nothing to counter them- straight on, cheap AI[umm... snipers or BAR suppression? With other infantry it would be a little difficult, but maybe a vehicle? Trying to counter some infantry with other infantry is kinda like trying to counter artillery with artillery, a hit and miss.])
Tankbusters(Good Anti-Tank, not amazing, but good. However, they're baseline infantry, easy to get a hold of. AND, easily killed/sniped)

---

Riflemen (Good all round units- but, not really great at anything. BAR upgrade is expensive, and reload is slow- stickbombs work well, but are unnervingly close range- and only slow most tanks they damage[same with TB now and TB is expensive cause thats all you get that AT HT for, but hey atleast Rifles have other purposes])

Tommy Rifles (Right now, the best Hope the allies have to counter the massive and highly effective axis infantry. Riflegrenades are the great equalizer, and brens stop axis armor for a short time. Both are expensive upgrades, Riflegrenades are "good", but their accuracy makes them highly random. Sometimes a direct hit will frag an entire axis squad, sometimes the shot will miss the squad entirely. Brens are on equal terms to BARs- good, but not great.) Tommies are good...

Sappers (Piss-poor healing rate- although, they're cheap. PIATS are an ok anti-tank weapon, for all it's worth- they're not unworkable, but, compared to Shreks, RRs and Bazookas, they're ok. Overrepair doesn't speed up repair enough to warrant the cost- most of the time.)

------


That comparison is only one- why compare infantry, you say? "The entire armies need to be looked at!" well- the entire armies are the same way. Axis have a large number of varied, and useful units, compare Panzer 4, Panther, Marder III, Panzer4PE, ATHT, Tiger, Tiger Ace, King Tiger, Puma, Stug and Stuh to... Sherman+Upgrade, Firefly, Cromwell, M10, and Pershing. Or, compare axis and allied support weapons (Axis have better mortars, both PE and Wher, the MG42 has longer range and better suppression than the .30 cal. Axis Pak is WAY better than the allied 57mm, due to it's cloak. Must I go on?)

This is why this post fails just a little bit, price. Everything Wehr and PE have is fucking expensive. Thats why they are good quality and have variety. Americans are meant for spam, thats what they are made for, basically(look at prices). British are made to support Americans or camp.

[Two]

brits were not made to support americans, and if they were made to camp why do they get owned by a mortar and cant fight back?

[Khorney]

i think what the issue is though, is while slightly more expensive, relative to allied units they are much, much more effective for their cost.

that and US cannot spam anymore like in vEiR

while PE seems to reasonably balanced, most of the counter-points raised for how 'crap' whermact stuff is are counters which are normally difficult to pull off in any realistic in-game situation against a compitent player.

also lol at PIAT comments. they are only usefull against entrenched tanks, and even then they are hit or miss.

[LordMalgoroth]

Don't nerf Axis units. Buff the Allies through their doctrine abilities as was mentioned earlier. Nerfing units has a way to come back and bite you in the ass.

And half the things I've seen brought up in this thread as being OP are not at all so. There are ways to counter or protect against every single unit in this game. It's a bit early on to go crying that shit is unfair.

[scrapking]

Don't nerf Axis units. Buff the Allies through their doctrine abilities as was mentioned earlier. Nerfing units has a way to come back and bite you in the ass.

And half the things I've seen brought up in this thread as being OP are not at all so. There are ways to counter or protect against every single unit in this game. It's a bit early on to go crying that shit is unfair.

I totally agree with this mentality.  Unless a unit ability is not appropriate for this mod (original treadbreaker for example), nobody likes having their units nerfed.  I don't think anything is OP, per se, although there is probably some wiggle room in pricing and availability.  I still think Rifleman, for example do not have enough availability compared to axis options.

But again, pricing and availability can also be impacted by doctrinal options, once implemented.  So we could end up seeing an infantry company capable of fielding stronger, or cheaper, or more plentiful riflemen. As an example.

[OhSlowpoke]

Okay, lets start with Baseline Infantry, compare...

Volks (which, can use MP40s, making them highly effective at close range, die easily)
Grens (LMGs or Shreks, either AT or AI, something few allied weapons can do, which are expensive expensive expensive)

PGs (Cheap- ALL your baseline infantry can repair ranks, upgrades can stop retreating infantry, easily killed and snipers rape them)
Assault (Great Anti infantry- allies have nothing to counter them- straight on, cheap AI[umm... snipers or BAR suppression? With other infantry it would be a little difficult, but maybe a vehicle? Trying to counter some infantry with other infantry is kinda like trying to counter artillery with artillery, a hit and miss.])
Tankbusters(Good Anti-Tank, not amazing, but good. However, they're baseline infantry, easy to get a hold of. AND, easily killed/sniped)

---

Riflemen (Good all round units- but, not really great at anything. BAR upgrade is expensive, and reload is slow- stickbombs work well, but are unnervingly close range- and only slow most tanks they damage[same with TB now and TB is expensive cause thats all you get that AT HT for, but hey atleast Rifles have other purposes])

Tommy Rifles (Right now, the best Hope the allies have to counter the massive and highly effective axis infantry. Riflegrenades are the great equalizer, and brens stop axis armor for a short time. Both are expensive upgrades, Riflegrenades are "good", but their accuracy makes them highly random. Sometimes a direct hit will frag an entire axis squad, sometimes the shot will miss the squad entirely. Brens are on equal terms to BARs- good, but not great.) Tommies are good...

Sappers (Piss-poor healing rate- although, they're cheap. PIATS are an ok anti-tank weapon, for all it's worth- they're not unworkable, but, compared to Shreks, RRs and Bazookas, they're ok. Overrepair doesn't speed up repair enough to warrant the cost- most of the time.)

------


That comparison is only one- why compare infantry, you say? "The entire armies need to be looked at!" well- the entire armies are the same way. Axis have a large number of varied, and useful units, compare Panzer 4, Panther, Marder III, Panzer4PE, ATHT, Tiger, Tiger Ace, King Tiger, Puma, Stug and Stuh to... Sherman+Upgrade, Firefly, Cromwell, M10, and Pershing. Or, compare axis and allied support weapons (Axis have better mortars, both PE and Wher, the MG42 has longer range and better suppression than the .30 cal. Axis Pak is WAY better than the allied 57mm, due to it's cloak. Must I go on?)

This is why this post fails just a little bit, price. Everything Wehr and PE have is fucking expensive. Thats why they are good quality and have variety. Americans are meant for spam, thats what they are made for, basically(look at prices). British are made to support Americans or camp.

The problem is, Flashpoint, is that price means nothing on the battlefield, only population cap. American units versus German units, and the german units are more effective for their population cap- which is fine an dandy, yes, the americans can send in more "waves" of troops- but it's pointless once they've already beat you in the first, second and third major battles, and they hold onto the contested points better than you can.

Lets give an example- American forces meet the Wher forces at a center point- these forces engage eachother. Now, lets get into details- the Wher forces cost the user roughly 20 to 30% more value (in MP, MUN and Fuel.) BUT, they're equal in population cap. Unless the Wher player is retarded, he's gonna win the first fight. He ALWAYS will. The allied player is forced to battle through attrition, which is neither fun, nor tactical. It brings out the spamming that Wher players hate so much, and prevents us from using combined arms to win fighting. To paraphrase, basically, it means that, once players on both sides take a step back and look how EiRR is played, they'll understand why the Wher and PE win so often- because they can win that first fight, 90% of the time, they can get the extra population- and then they can win. It's just that simple. The allies can never win the first battle because of the axis unit superiority.