More thoughts on balance

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[Bubz]

Sherman (vanilla) = P4 (vanilla)
Sherman (vanilla) < P4 (vet 1-3)
Sherman (upgunned) = P4 (vanilla)
Sherman (upgunned) < P4 (vet 1-3)
Sherman (upgun+vet3) > P4 (vet 1-3)
Sherman (upgun+vet3) > P4 (vet 1-3)

[CafeMilani]

u forget that allies have stronger support weapons: ATGun does much damage against allied tank, stickies...jeez theyre awesome, grenades...lil nukes if u ask me ( 90 damage) ...

[scrapking]

u forget that allies have stronger support weapons: ATGun does much damage against allied tank, stickies...jeez theyre awesome, grenades...lil nukes if u ask me ( 90 damage) ...

Actually almost completely the opposite.  Axis support weapons are better across the board.

[scrapking]

Baine, I'm not going to repeat myself again.  You are going to have to reread what I said and figure out why what you said doesn't apply.  At all.

I've only said it several times now.  Sometimes with boldface, or italics, and sometimes with #s in front.

I reread it, and honestly don't know what you want. Making the Panther an unlock ability won't balance anything. It will turn the shit in favour of allies, nothing more.
It worked quite well in the last years with the Panther as anormal unit and not some kind of unlock.
And i know that EiR is not EiRR but can we please wait until the doctrines are out and then come back to this discussion?
I fear that you want to act way too fast.

Because its not about pricing or cost balance.

Its about the best units each side can field, and how much battalion development it takes to get there.  It is about who can put the best 25 pop on the field at once.

And this IS about doctrine development.  How many prestige points does a U.S. armor player have to spend before he can match the panther in a single on field unit?

How many does an Infantry player have to spend before he can match 4 KCH?  or 1 Nebelwerfer?  or 1 Stuka?

An Airborne player?

And none of those will ever match Wehrmacht on all of the above, ever, in terms of that first 25 POP call in, in R+ mode, when you are alone.

Yet all of them are spending PP to achieve parity of sorts with what Wehrmacht already starts with available to them.

And no, it did NOT work well in EiR.  Balance changed as everyones' battalions grew and became stronger.  It started with a distinct Axis advantage, and shifted to Allies through some possibly OP T3 & T4 abilities.

Ideally, balance would change as little as possible, neither favoring one over the other at any point.  The point I am addressing is the beginning.

In other words, now.

[Baine]

Baine, I'm not going to repeat myself again.  You are going to have to reread what I said and figure out why what you said doesn't apply.  At all.

I've only said it several times now.  Sometimes with boldface, or italics, and sometimes with #s in front.

I reread it, and honestly don't know what you want. Making the Panther an unlock ability won't balance anything. It will turn the shit in favour of allies, nothing more.
It worked quite well in the last years with the Panther as anormal unit and not some kind of unlock.
And i know that EiR is not EiRR but can we please wait until the doctrines are out and then come back to this discussion?
I fear that you want to act way too fast.

Because its not about pricing or cost balance.

Its about the best units each side can field, and how much battalion development it takes to get there.  It is about who can put the best 25 pop on the field at once.

And this IS about doctrine development.  How many prestige points does a U.S. armor player have to spend before he can match the panther in a single on field unit?

How many does an Infantry player have to spend before he can match 4 KCH?  or 1 Nebelwerfer?  or 1 Stuka?

An Airborne player?

And none of those will ever match Wehrmacht on all of the above, ever, in terms of that first 25 POP call in, in R+ mode, when you are alone.

Yet all of them are spending PP to achieve parity of sorts with what Wehrmacht already starts with available to them.

And no, it did NOT work well in EiR.  Balance changed as everyones' battalions grew and became stronger.  It started with a distinct Axis advantage, and shifted to Allies through some possibly OP T3 & T4 abilities.

Ideally, balance would change as little as possible, neither favoring one over the other at any point.  The point I am addressing is the beginning.

In other words, now.

Ok then let's have mirror armies. Give KCH to allies, Tigers to allies etc. So we can have the first shot wins mentality.
Everyone has the same units, same chances.




That's not how the factions are made ffs. It's the damn advantages/disadvantages that come with different units.

[BigDick]

Bigdick... fitting name.

HMGs are there for suppression, not killing.

directional suppression hurts when you blob, otherwise you could be glad that a hmg supress (supressed units take less damage) your meatshield to flank it

you should work on your playstyle

Howitzer has more range, but cannot move.  Movement is huge, for defense, and hitting other targets on larger maps.

howi is this annoying thing that does huge damage and baits (through huge range) deep behind enemy lines to finish of some units
 

You are fairly correct about the number of grens & volks that can be practically fielded, but the point is that they have the option, Americans don't.

you had the option in EiR to field much more pios then engies because they are cheaper

means that this option makes the possibility OP? lower grens to 6 and volks to 6 i give a shit ...or rifles to 8 i've just 8 rifles in my company.´.i don't know why people with 50% more are screaming that they are to "limited"

Its not like comparing a Pershing to a Stug, the Pershing isn't AVAILABLE without unlocks, all those other vehicles are.  EVERY Wehrmacht Battalion can have a Panther.  ONE American Battalion can have a Pershing.  The BEST tank that EVERY American Battalion can have is a 76mm Sherman.  The BEST tank that EVERY Wehrmacht Battalion can have is a Panther.

don't need to argue here because you are compariung units with totaly different prices and roles with each other...

and yeah there are no mirror matches in COH

[qupte]
Again, its about options.  Two Axis doctrines can field a Tiger type tank, one can field a Tiger Ace AND King Tiger.  Americans get ONE doctrine which can field a tank arguably inferior to all of the above.

good luck in fielding a KT and a tiger ace

[EscforrealityTLS]

Holly crap Scrapking you've got your work cut out for you in this thread! 

And what the hell are you talking about Baine? That's not what he is saying, fuck does the idea of balancing the armies scare you that much?

[scrapking]

Bigdick...  I hope English isn't your primary language.  I'll answer you the next time that you make a valid point.  Don't wait up.

[Khorney]

it's a shame this thread got bum rushed so quickly, but i think concerning wehr, the OP makes some valid points. as he edited out though, PE infantry isn't much of a concern (apart from dastardly falls, and i would have gotten away with with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky fg42s! =P)

[Baine]

And what the hell are you talking about Baine? That's not what he is saying, fuck does the idea of balancing the armies scare you that much?

Balance? Oh sure take the Panther out. I mean, the P4 and all will easily win against a Firefly or whatnot. Because that's the British Panther version.

This is not only Axis and Allies anymore.

But ok, balance? Then make the Croc a doctrine unit or let players have to unlock it aswell.

[Khorney]

to be fair baine, the croc has only availability 1 before you need to start paying PP. so you can hardly spam them, and it's not as if axis don't have multiple sources of AT to deal with it.

[scrapking]

.30 cal kills faster

No it doesn't (well not to significant degree anyway )

howie has muuuuchhh more range and does much more damage

That's what he said - except you didn't mention the stuka's mobility. If the first couple of shells are not on target its not too hard to dodge a howie barrage

Panther > 76mm Sherman

it is like comparing a pershing to a stug

No its not, he is comparing each sides heaviest non-doctrinal tank, as opposed to the weakest of one side and the strongest of the other.

Mr Fanboy

A panther costs 590fuel, 700ish manpower. It's drastically more expensive than a sherman, in fact to recover its fuel costs it needs to kill at least two shermans, AND it can ONLY kill tanks, it fails at killing infantry.

The point is, Mrs. Fanboy, that it is still something available to the Wehrmacht when the Allies have no such choice.  Then, at 16 POP, the Allies cannot bring 2 Shermans.  They cannot put a single unit as powerful as a Panther on the field without doctrine unlocks.

Its NOT about the balance between Shermans and Panthers....  I never said it was.  It is about one faction having the option to get it in every doctrine, at a time when Americans cannot field anything like it.  I was just pointing out each faction's best available tank options without doctrine unlocks.

The point is, that Axis should have to unlock Panthers to allow Allies a chance to basically catch up on PP expense to even the field.  Axis should also unlock Stukas, and Nebels, and KCH as well.  However I am NOT suggesting that any of those units should cost more resources.  To be honest, that should probably apply to the Firefly as well, although I was never really considering British or PE in the first place.


People....   reading comprehension FTW, before you argue against points I am not making...  please.

Baine, you are clearly looking at a sequence of letters separated by punctuation, and grouped into paragraphs.

But you haven't read a thing.  If you can't put the effort in to bother reading, I see no further reason to bother answering you.

Cheers.

[sgMisten]

I agree early war that axis has an advantage, but feel it shifts the other way late war. R+ mode it's true also, because Allies generally tend to win in attrition, rather than in capping ability.

Old EiR allies typically had attrition advantage. Armour coy 10% fuel 10% mp. Infantry company anywhere from 10% to 25% mp discounts with muni discounts. AB with AB brothers. Very few axis went for tenacious faith, so allies usually had attrition advantage.

Allies don't have it now though, no discounts, so with superior infantry axis should be ahead. But they don't have that crazy vet 2 defensive bonus anymore so we'll see how it goes.

[Baine]

to be fair baine, the croc has only availability 1 before you need to start paying PP. so you can hardly spam them, and it's not as if axis don't have multiple sources of AT to deal with it.

So let me use your words here:

to be fair, the panther has only availability 1 before you need to start paying PP. so you can hardly spam them, and it's not as if allies don't have multiple sources of AT to deal with it.

[EscforrealityTLS]

His point is not about spam, it about relative strength of forces at the beginning of a war.

[Khorney]

hmm, wasn't his point about KCH, not panthers, saying it should have been bought as a doctrine choice acorss the board? thats what i thought you were saying the croc should be aswell.

[BigDick]

Bigdick...  I hope English isn't your primary language.  I'll answer you the next time that you make a valid point.  Don't wait up.

we can continue this discussion using german, i hope you will impress me with perfect german
dummbatz

[MannfredvonRitter]

If you in fact dissed someone for their imperfect English when they aren't from a country with English as a first language you're either a jerk or American . Try and be a bit more courteous and not be a racists jerk to people.

[Baine]

His point is not about spam, it about relative strength of forces at the beginning of a war.

I wasn't talking about spam either. I was talking about the strength of the croc in early war. Because it is a nasty infantry killer and well armored!
The flamer goes through everything, you're not safe from it.
It kills infantry too fast to be available to every american from start on! You should make it so people have to unlock it, or even make it a doctrine unit!

[jackmccrack]

It kills infantry too fast to be available to every american from start on! You should make it so people have to unlock it, or even make it a doctrine unit!

I hope you're not offended that I hope you're joking!