MP40 Price @ 75 Munition = Reasonable?

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[31stPzGren]

have you tried them with the new changes? they got a definite boost, and are much more on par with bars, but thats not what they were priced against.

I'm sorry but seriously what were you guys thinking when you decided to make the change to MP40 of medium accuracy to .45 and for that alone, raised its price to 75 munitions?

If your intention is to stick to original COH Values barring needed important balance changes seems to be very inconsistent here.

Lets do some math here to understand why 75 munitions came into the picture. We'll take the "average" for all variables.

Fire aim Time = 0.25 - 0.5 (I make this timing neglible because it only applies to the initial acquisition of target)

Burst Duration = 1.5 - 2.0 (assume 1.75)
Cooldown = 1.5 - 2.0 (assume 1.75)
Reload = 3.5 - 2.8 (assume 3.15)
Reload Frequency = 3
Rate of Fire = 7
Damage = 5

Mathematics - Take note that no multipliers are used as medium range multipliers are at a value of 1.0, effectively negligible.

Damage Per Burst assuming 100% accuracy
= Burst Duration x Rate of Fire x Damage
= 1.75 x 7 x 5
= 61.25

Damage Dealt per Reload assuming 100% accuracy
= Damage Per Burst x Reload Frequency
= 61.25 x 3
= 183.75

Total time taken
= Burst Duration x Reload Frequency + 2 x Cooldown + Reload
= 1.75 x 3 + 2 x 1.75 + 3.15
= 11.9 Sec

MEDIUM RANGE ACCURACY OF 0.45
Damage Per Second when Stationary
= Damage Dealt Per Reload x Accuracy / Total Time Taken
= 183.75 x 0.45 / 11.9 sec
= 6.95 DPS (rounded off to 3 significant figures)

MEDIUM RANGE ACCURACY OF 0.2
Damage Per Second when Stationary
= 183.75 x 0.2 / 11.9 sec
= 3.09 DPS (rounded off to 3 significant figures)

Damage increase = 124%

What is flawed with using this mathematics?
On theory it sounds FANTASTIC that granting a 124% damage increase on a weapon and giving only a 75 munition increase is a real DISCOUNT! Imagine, for 25 munitions more, you're paying for more than a 100% increase in damage output!

However, here are the flaws;

i. Name me the scenarios in which any competent player keeps his infantry still when charged by volks + mp40s unless he has thompsons or MGs or something that will WTF pwn the volks.

ii. Assuming your volks have to chase, the moving modifier is 0.2. Any player worth his salt will know that and just keep his units moving.

iii. Volks are an exceptionally WEAK platform to mount such a weapon on. Can it even deal up to 75 munition worth in damage? The argument as it goes. Why should I place 75 munition on an MP40 as compared to 75 munition on a LMG for a grenadier which is arguably tougher?

iv. The most direct counter in price etc, from what is so obvious, is the Rifles + BAR. The BAR will win flat out because it has suppression and you'll NEVER EVER get the chance to close the distance so at long range the DPS will still win your MP40 squad and its suppression will just stop you.

So considering this points, what are you driving at?
The augmentation to the MP40 improves its defensive role considerably more than its offensive capacity however, this is not very useful as people don't really charge MP40s with their infantry unless you're talking about really really buffed Elite Infantry.

Isolated by itself, the volks + mp40 is extremely deadly and the mp40 should go up in cost to even at least 85 munitions! However, the truth is that EiRR is a game where you can bring vehicles/tanks in early.

Giving such high firepower to volks is just like making them a glass cannon. You have the damage, now the question is to get in range... which has ALWAYS been the question.

If you deliver the volks in rapidly through a halftrack (thank fully quite viable now at 3 pop cap and cheap costs), you'll be right on top of the enemy anyway, which gives you your full short range bonus without moving penalties! I did rather have 3 mp40s at 50 munitions w/o the accuracy modifier than to have 2 MP40s at 75 munitions with the accuracy modifier.

Situation on the battlefield is never picture perfect and you'll NEVER always get to have all your volks fighting defenceless blobs of infantry who have no real feasible counter.

If the volks were about 25% tougher I would agree that 75 munitions is pretty adequately priced.

So I propose;

Keep the MP40 as it was, 50 munitions unbuffed or reduce the new price of the mp40 munitions and reduce the bonus given.

There comes a certain point in time when the boost passes its beneficial stage and I would rather not have the additional boosts and keep my weapons cheap so MORE of my army can have MORE weapons which is more effective over all, rather than relying on a few shock troops which can be killed by chance.

[Khorney]

they're only 75? thats pretty good, considering the whole squad gets them. granted, it doesn't turn them into KCH, but mp40 squads clean up house with more or less all standard allied infantry (although mostly americans, if brits have got sufficient popcap on field).

EDIT: reading your post in depth, your main concern seems to be that they are less effective when they are countered. understandable, although, when you consider that allies have no equivalent they can buy for their basic infantry (all their assault troops are expensive specialists), 75 munitions is a drop in the water for their potential effectiveness. bear in mind, what i would consider the closest allied neighbour being the rifle 'nade, is 100 munitions, it's actually quite a bargain. i don't have an axis company however, but from being on the receiving end i can say they are pretty effective, so take from that what you will.

[panzerjager1943]

You should be greatful. Relic didn't increase the cost at all, we did.

The accuracy buff, only affects medium range. Not long or short. So we won't raise the price 225% because it's only medium range that's affected, not overall damage output.

[scrapking]

iii. Volks are an exceptionally WEAK platform to mount such a weapon on. Can it even deal up to 75 munition worth in damage? The argument as it goes. Why should I place 75 munition on an MP40 as compared to 75 munition on a LMG for a grenadier which is arguably tougher?

- Posted by: 31stPzGren

It is basically this reason alone why personally my MU gets spent on LMGs before MP40s.  Even though a 4 man squad is reduced to 1 about the same time as a 5 man squad in many cases, at least the 1 man LMG gren is still useful if he is in a building or something with other units.

But the rest of his fancy math is pointless.  The above argument is what sells me on it.

I'm not making a strong argument that MP40s cost too much, I agree they're good.  I just feel that for the price on one of Wehr's weakest units, MU is better spent elsewhere.  But by my same logic they would probably have to be close to half the price of an LMG before I would prioritize MP40s over LMGs.

However, what you don't want to do is suddenly make MP40 volks too cost effective, "ghetto" KCH, or make it a no-brainer to max out volks and equip them all with MP40s either.

And frankly this same argument somewhat applies to to Riflemen with BARs on some level.  Although a 6 man rifle squad is a little sturdier platform than a 5 man volks squad, and U.S. doesn't always have an elite infantry version to compete with for upgrades.

[salan]

bars only give two on the units as well, where mp40s is on each squad member.

[Flashpoint Gold]

iii. Volks are an exceptionally WEAK platform to mount such a weapon on. Can it even deal up to 75 munition worth in damage? The argument as it goes. Why should I place 75 munition on an MP40 as compared to 75 munition on a LMG for a grenadier which is arguably tougher?

Exactly, when it was its 50mun it got its job done and wasn't that much cost. Now at 75mun and buff, its stupid.

bars only give two on the units as well, where mp40s is on each squad member.

Tell that to the BAR suppression. When it comes into play the Mp40s don't mean shit.

[AmPmAllied]

The buff for the same price was what brought them into line in vCoH.

Now they are too expensive to be put on Volks, hell, may as well use vanilla volks at long range and do more damage without having to chase or move out of cover.

Then again, I'm not suprised by the balance either.

And Panzer, you really have no room to talk balance after those vet tables you put out.

[panzerjager1943]

Really? Most people seemed happy. I guess you just wanted your super tanks to get even more super?

[AmPmAllied]

This coming from the guy that gave sprint out at vet 2 and wanted AC armor on all his halftracks, because he only plays PE?

Why shouldn't heavy tanks get bonuses equivalent to other units? They take just as much or more to vet than any infantry squad. They cost PP to even use them. So yea, I would expect vet on them to be worth getting.

Thats not the issue though, the issue is the MP40's are terrible for their price.

[panzerjager1943]

Sprint is on the current Vet at Vet2 for all PE units. I just moved it over to my list. You may not get it but it was planned.

[BigDick]

they're only 75? thats pretty good, considering the whole squad gets them. granted, it doesn't turn them into KCH, but mp40 squads clean up house with more or less all standard allied infantry (although mostly americans, if brits have got sufficient popcap on field).

LOL first day playing CoH?
mp40 vs units in buildings is total shit

and bar >>>>>> mp40

[scrapking]

they're only 75? thats pretty good, considering the whole squad gets them. granted, it doesn't turn them into KCH, but mp40 squads clean up house with more or less all standard allied infantry (although mostly americans, if brits have got sufficient popcap on field).

LOL first day playing CoH?
mp40 vs units in buildings is total shit

and bar >>>>>> mp40

And BAR prices have nothing to do with MP40 prices.  They are not competing for the same player's resources.  BAR price has more to do with other U.S. upgrade costs & unit prices.

An upgrade's price has nothing to do with another faction's upgrade price.  It is whether or not you can afford that upgrade, how many you can afford, and whether it is worth buying compared to other upgrades, and units, available to you, on that faction only.

I'm not really saying that BARs are too cheap or too expensive, but you cannot compare the prices of both.  You can compare the prices of LMGs and MP40s much more effectively.

[Smokaz]

Wouldnt a blob of mp40 volks shred the brit blob?

[panzerjager1943]

If you can use cover against Bren LMGs and get out of cover against Riflenades, potentially. But a Bren Riflenade blob? Best of luck. I seriously doubt it.

[31stPzGren]

Wouldnt a blob of mp40 volks shred the brit blob?

Only if the brit blob stayed still and has no vehicles... In vCoH MP40 is useful because you can bring it out at a time when brits have only brens for vehicles and you can gib it with a faust. Although personally I think the most cost effective anti-brit option in vcoh is flame pios + hmg.

In EiRR however, bear in mind the ready availability of vehicles/tanks which greatly reduces the efficiency of anti infantry weapons.

Only in very isolated scenarios does the mp40 shine... which is not very likely to happen.

[Igawa]

As an axis commander I am completely satisfied with the new upgrade MP40s. They performed exceptionally when I used them, and are worth EVERY munition.

Double commandos vs halftrack+1 volk+ 1mp40....halftrack runs up to the mandos, fight ensues, manages to suppress one of them before I bail my volks out and the halftrack blows up. Brit player focuses fire on the wrong volks squad....and the MP40 cleans up all 10 of them. The other volks squad didn't get any kills.

This was at point blank range, maybe 4 feet apart. If he had force fired on the right volks squad i'm sure things would have turned out differently, but that's expected. As soon as the halftrack started to get killed it was like "oh no, now my volks are going to get raped too" But the end result was much more than I expected.

I'm sure they'd make pretty crappy assault troops (they're still volks) but they aren't as flimsy as before...as compared to unupgraded volks, which are only good for recrewing weapons. This upgrade IMO is great. Makes them useful.

[Bubz]

Rather pointless (a part from the sucking performance of commandoes) example, what has been buffed is mid range accuracy not close range. That's why they are damn good right now.
You guys are understimating volksgrenadiers seriously. Unupgraded they aren't assault troops but they are as aeffective as rifles in 1v1 firefights. Seriously you keep saying they suck at assaulting (they do) but so do rifles at long range. If you charge with rifles volks from long range you're gonna lose that one.

[Smokaz]

I see wehrmacht players spamming volks like no tomorrow now, upgraded or not.

[Bubz]

That's because they are cheap and effective (at least versus riflemen) Considering you can't retreat like you do in vcoh rifles are even less effective because you don't have a second chance. You smokaz, as a vcoh player should know how effective are volks from long range vs riflemen, and even if you charge them it's not a sure win.

[Smokaz]

Its not a sure win either way because of how the crit tables work, and volks generally stand very well up to rifles unless the rifles are right on top of them or have bars.