tank destroyers for pop.

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[DeadlyShoe]

M10s should come down to 8 (if not 7), Fireflies should come down to 11 or 12. Both these tanks are almost solely concerned with combatting tanks and lack anti infantry capability. Yet fielding them seriously compromises an allied player's ability to fight infantry because they just cost too much pop.  The m10 in particular has only a mediocre anti armor ability and is metagamed into near uselessness by Axis players fielding shreks and paks alongside their heavy tanks. 

The Marder is already 8 pop yet even with the lesser threat posed by Allied tanks there are many complaints about its pop efficiency.

I have not used (nor seen) a Hetzer in EIRR; I don't feel I can comment on their pop. However IIRC their anti infantry capability is decent, certainly greater than the Marder, m10 or Firefly.

The high popcap of Allied tank destroyers simply exarcebates the long standing problem of heavy tank popcap efficiency.

[LordMalgoroth]

No

[jackmccrack]

It's not that bad, you just gotta poke around instead of facing them head on and such.

If I could compare tank battles to boxing, a Firefly is like getting punched by a guy with long arms whereas the M10 is like getting hit by a sucker punch in the back of the head.

[Smokaz]

I think the m10 should be 10 pop, but the problem I see is that nobody plays with the m10 other than as a sucide units. Also, in a 1v1 the m10 rapes the hetzer so bad its not funny, while the m10 costing significantly less to field. UNLESS the hezer is sitting completely inactive and perfectly angled in a ambush with the possiblity to back up into some wall to make the m10 unable to circle.

[panzerjager1943]

I think the M10 and Marder should be less pop, mostly because the M10 can't solo any Tank bigger than an Ostwind, and the Marder is an AT gun that's twice the pop. 2 AT guns or 1 Marder? Guess which any sane person'd rather have.

I don't know how much Fireflies or Hetzers are, but maybe they could go down a bit. Fireflies should not be over 12 pop, but that isn't too much of an issue as a well-microed Firefly can damage (without being damaged itself) any Axis tank.

[Tymathee]

panther and firefly are almost on the same par, except panther is 16 pop and firefly is what, 14? so that's a little one sided there don'cha think?

I dunno about the m10 being put down to 8 pop, the marder is more a traditional tank destroyer than the m10 seeing as it has no rotating turrent. If you notice, the m10 has the lowest pop for any "tank" with a rotation turret. The stug/stuh is 8 and has no rotating turret, m8's are 9 pop, pumas are 8 (...why? there's an interesting question, m8's cost more and are more pop than pumas, anywho wrong thread) so to follow the non rotating turret pop the hetzer, and maurder is under 10 pop. I think m10's are fine atm. Stop using them as suicide units and use them defensively vs tanks with your infantry.

[DeadlyShoe]

The Panther can actually fight infantry. It's not a great anti infantry tank, but the capability exists, and it's also resistant to infantry AT with skirts. 

[Tymathee]

The Panther can actually fight infantry. It's not a great anti infantry tank, but the capability exists, and it's also resistant to infantry AT with skirts. 

so can m10's and firefly's...

and because panthers are so resistant, they have a higher price. a panther is twice as much as a m10 and has 150 mp and 200 fu over a firefly. You rarely see more than one in anyone's company, so i find no issue here.

with fuel being at where its at, I could field all 3 m10 i can have on availability, + 2 on reserve and still be able to field 2 more shermans and upgun them. I thikn that could easily take on a panther...plus 4 at guns that you could field. I only find panthers annoying when i have tanks on the field. Get urself some at guns and they go down easy.

[RikiRude]

I think the M-10 would be perfect if they could fix it's misfire. I always keep at least 1 M-10 in my company, to circle stugs and stuhs, and to take on weakened P4s. In fact I'd probably field 2-3 if it weren't for that damned misfire bug. It becomes far to frustrating when you take on a p4, start winning the fight because you get behind of them, then lose because your M-10 did 2 crucial misfires.

[Tymathee]

I agree. It's actually a rather easy fix, just get rid of the wind-up and wind-down. There's really no reason for it to be there.

[panzerjager1943]

Actually there is. When you remove the wind-up, the projectile fires 1.3 seconds before the gun makes the noise and enters the animation. When you told me removing the wind-up solved it (some time ago on Ventrillo), I did do that to test (I would really like it to work properly) but instead I got the symptoms I described above

The Panther can actually fight infantry. It's not a great anti infantry tank, but the capability exists, and it's also resistant to infantry AT with skirts.

so can m10's and firefly's...

M10s and Fireflies are less accurate against Infantry than the Panther The Panther is as accurate as the Hetzer vs. all troops, which is fairly decent.

[scrapking]

I could see lowering the pop of true AT vehicles like M10, Hetzer, even Marder to like 8, 8, 7 respectively.  Even 9, 9, 7.

Lowering the Firefly to that of a normal Sherman is too low for how good of a tank it is.  It opens the argument to lower a Panther by around the same amount, and the game needs neither.  Agreed it is inferior to killing infantry compared to a Panther with the MG upgrade, but that upgrade also already comes with a cost, as do skirts.  Perhaps it is possible to code in Fireflies an MG upgrade?

Firefly at 12 is way too low, 13 is sort of an insignificant split of the difference.  To be honest, I could see Fireflies dropping to 13, and Panthers dropping to 15 before I could see the Firefly at 12.  It simply couldn't be allowed on the field for the same pop value as a P4, which it would destroy handily.

But is that 1 extra pop really that important?  I honestly don't see a significant issue with current values in terms of game balance.  We have a sort of commonality that every faction's basic tank is 12 pop.  The Sherman, the P4, the Cromwell.  All of the heavier tanks are scaled up from there, according to their relative effectiveness.  And that reference point has worked pretty well for us.

I do agree on the other AT vehicles though, and they would still be double that of crewed AT guns.  And really they are just tracked AT guns in the end.  

[MannfredvonRitter]

Versus one another the firefly and panther are fairly even matched, long range the firefly has the adv, short range panther has it. I think at the same pop they're fair, they're tank hunters, not anti tank persea.

[Tymathee]

hmm...that's weird that the sound has a wind up, i wonder if there's a slight sound wind-up involved.

[RikiRude]

I hate to help turn this thread off track, but is it really fair to compare a P4 to a firefly? P4 is a jack of all trades tank, while the firefly is solely a tank hunter vehicle.

Also if they were to give the british tanks MGs (which I doubt they would) would it get one like a .50 like the shermans, or a crummy .30 like in the MG nests?

[acker]

The Firefly outranges a Panther by 7.5 units (55 to 47.5). The Panther is faster than the Firefly by .2 units (5.2 to 5.0, an insignificant sum). However, the Panther accelerates 66% faster than the Firefly, at a rate of 2.5 to 1.5. Which is not good for the Firefly.

Unless you have some sort of external advantage or trap planned, don't try to kite a Panther, the odds of the combat are probably against you. Feel free to kite everything else, though.

As previously mentioned, the Panther has much better anti-AI capability (by about 3 times) than the Firefly due to its respectable accuracy. Which means that the Panther can (barely) fit into two roles, while the Firefly can only fit one.



I really don't think they are fair at the same popcap.

[DeadlyShoe]

Yeah. It's not just the MG on the Panther, the basic gun is better against infantry. It's really the metagame factor as much as anything though - a firefly cannot afford to engage infantry, except in an emergency. Shreks hurt it too much.  Panthers can sit in range of infantry all day as long as they keep their distance and are wary of ATGs.  Right now you have 2 pop (3 pop at firefly-13) to make up that anti infantry gap. I don't think it's enough.

And the Panther is a favorable comparison for the firefly, relative to Tigers anyway. All it takes is one opportunity shot for a Tiger to erase any infantry you brought with your Firefly.

m10s are in a similar boat, except they are cheap+fast enough that you can go full metal carmageddon without sacrificing too much of your AT ability.  Still... the bloody treads method is unreliable at best.

It's not a huge gamekilling issue, no. The game still works. 6 pop rifles didn't kill the game either though.  

Realize the Firefly is quite literally a medium tank that trades anti infantry for anti tank, like how the PIV-S trades anti tank for anti infantry.  It _should_ be killing P4s for pop

***

I don't think it's possible to give the Firefly a MG.

[RikiRude]

What about a Firefly with a command tank? That battle I'm sure the firefly will mop the floor. get a cromwell in there to bring the AI power... you got a force to be reckoned with. But then again that's quite a bit of pop cap all put into that.

[MistenTH]

What about a Firefly with a command tank? That battle I'm sure the firefly will mop the floor. get a cromwell in there to bring the AI power... you got a force to be reckoned with. But then again that's quite a bit of pop cap all put into that.

14+3 = 17 pop o.O firefly commandtank
Panther = 16
dumdeedoo

[gamesguy1]

What about a Firefly with a command tank? That battle I'm sure the firefly will mop the floor. get a cromwell in there to bring the AI power... you got a force to be reckoned with. But then again that's quite a bit of pop cap all put into that.

I'd get a panther and a P4 and wipe the floor with your force.  Charge the firefly with both tanks and it will die before it can kill even one, cromwell is just mopup duty afterwards.