Indirect Fire Discussion

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[MannfredvonRitter]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

I do find a certain sense of irony.

Now I haven't asked for the ATHT to come back (in exactly its previous capacity...), but in the course of arguments about the ATHT the main argument in favour of nerfing it, was that the ATHT makes tanks impossible to vet up. The calliope hardly makes it any different does it? How hard is it to vet up infantry when every battle includes a calliope? Calliope is THE most survivable and THE most powerful artillery piece in Europe in Ruins. Even if you get a P4 behind their lines (no easy task) or a panther it can just run away so easily and then you lose the tank that was trying to kill it in the first place. Ironically enough, if you lose a panther (the only fast and possible option to kill a calliope) you will lose more fuel and manpower in resources killing the calliope than its value.

I haven't checked the cost of the calliope in EiR, but if it isn't substantially more than other artillery pieces I will be somewhat disappointed. Hands down, the calliope is the most effective. Even novice players can get 20-30 kills in a game with one of them, and most noticeably the calliope rockets are quite effective against vehicles, namely light vehicles. What's the population of most axis companies? Heh. I have no problem with howitzers/priests or any other artillery. The calliope is guaranteed death for any infantry in the area of effect unless you happen to be near a building or on a hill.

I know how to dodge calliopes so don't start with the l2p crap. Downwards sloping hill, buildings, terrain to block etc. Reality is, if you start moving when you hear it fire, you often will still be hit by the barrage.

Final note, calliopes have sniper homing rockets, first one in a barrage always kills my sniper.

All I can say is you can guarantee Calliope users that I will have 5-6 luftwaffe air strikes bought for the sole purpose of constantly vet hunting your calliope, and to be honest it is one of the few things that I and everyone I've spoken to will go out of their way to hunt, regardless of whether it is the last thing on the battlefield or not or how damaged it may be.

[scrapking]

Manfred, could not agree with you more on Calliopes.  There very existence makes any soft unit a horrible vet investment.  Now consider that with more than 1, or even more than 2 on the field at once - which is not that rare.

[MannfredvonRitter]

I recently had the highly enjoyable situation of 3 calliopes on the field at once.

This highly joyous occasion is accompanied by streets in a city map and calliopes foot firing any significant attempts to take advantage of their 36 pop which is 'tied up'. The most enjoyable part of the experience is actually that all of my vehicles die incredibly fast to the calliope, making my force quite easy to defeat, the low health totals per man also does it's share of the hard work, ensuring a high kill total for the calliope.

I wish I had some data, because graphing PE usage against Calliope usage would be entertaining, I'm fairly certain there will be an inverse relation between the two.

Funny thing, is the FOO and Mortar barrage have massive cooldowns, far longer than the calliope, but the platform for the artillery is incredibly easy to kill and its artillery is quite avoidable. I kind of wonder why the calliope doesn't have significantly longer recharge times? I think that when any rare weapon/unit is chosen in preference to ALL other options regardless, that there is an issue of some sort (Tiger Ace anyone?).

[Tymathee]

the calliope is the most costly artillery unit in eir (2nd is Hummel). It's the 2nd most costly unit in the american arsenal next to the Pershing of course.

the calliope is also 10 pop instead of 9. I've never played with a callie vs PE as i only play as infantry this time around but i know that vs wehr it's still a difficutl battle at times because of the high spread and the high health of their infantry. The thing is...the callie is the only allied unit that is a real game changer and I think that nerfing it too much will cause a lot of calls to change certain axis stuff since they've got several game changers.

Just for reference, my definition of a game-changer is a unit that when brought on the field totally changes the mindset of the opposing player in their own strategy to the point where the majority of your focus is either on killing or avoiding that unit. Vet non-withstanding.

[MannfredvonRitter]

the calliope is the most costly artillery unit in eir (2nd is Hummel). It's the 2nd most costly unit in the american arsenal next to the Pershing of course.

the calliope is also 10 pop instead of 9. I've never played with a callie vs PE as i only play as infantry this time around but i know that vs wehr it's still a difficutl battle at times because of the high spread and the high health of their infantry. The thing is...the callie is the only allied unit that is a real game changer and I think that nerfing it too much will cause a lot of calls to change certain axis stuff since they've got several game changers.

Just for reference, my definition of a game-changer is a unit that when brought on the field totally changes the mindset of the opposing player in their own strategy to the point where the majority of your focus is either on killing or avoiding that unit. Vet non-withstanding.

As PE the calliope is beyond deadly due to the weak armour of units and the low health of infantry.

[scrapking]

The thing is...the callie is the only allied unit that is a real game changer and I think that nerfing it too much will cause a lot of calls to change certain axis stuff since they've got several game changers.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, to be honest.

I would like to think that I am fairly unbiased, even though my preferred faction is Wehrmacht.  But.

The game could stand to see less availability on several units, Calliope, Nebel, Stuka, PAKs, mortars of all kinds.  There is a valid argument about the Tiger Ace although having used one, it does not seem as good as when I face one.  It does have its shortcomings.  Some or all of those units might also deserve a pop increase as well.

I'm not really sure on what the correct solutions are, some people don't even see any of that as problems, although I would say that they are.

[gamesguy1]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

Stuka is pretty damn hard to take out though.  Even in EIR and the days of OBM M8/M10 hordes and the sky raining raid assault airborne my stukas survive most games.

You must be kidding.

Last war, I had Elite Fucking Infantry run right through incredible defenses so they could Zooka/RR my vetted Stukas and Nebels.


What the FUCK kind of defence can an arty piece lay to elite, unsuppressable infantry who can spawn with AT weapons on top of it. (Or late on pure vehicle armies.)

Be serious, please. The Nebel and Stuka are both easier to kill than the priest, Hummel and Callie, probably slightly harder (not by much) than the 5pnder and Howie.

You kill elite infantry with AI weapons.  Grenadiers with LMG, KCH, etc all work fine.

Stukas are the most survivable or the 2nd most survivable unit in the game.   My stukas always survive longer than my calliopes even in EIR with OBM M8 spam and raid assault AB.  The stuka is so freaking fast there is no excuse for the enemy to know where it is at all.

[MannfredvonRitter]

I think 99% of all Calliope deaths were from rocket arty and MI. The Stukka wasn't inherantly more survivable, there just wasn't such an easy counter to it. Airborne RR would be a common way it would die however.

[Tymathee]

lol very true.

[Killer344]

or tetrarchs... those things kill them with 3 shots.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Reality is that the calliope is the most powerful and most survivable artillery in the game. Once it's on the field you can only skirmish with the enemy, you can no longer engage en-masse. It is game breaking to the tactical aspects of the game.

[gamesguy1]

Reality is that the calliope is the most powerful and most survivable artillery in the game. Once it's on the field you can only skirmish with the enemy, you can no longer engage en-masse. It is game breaking to the tactical aspects of the game.

Makes you wonder how i managed to win 90%+ of my axis games in EIR against companies that sometimes had 3+ calliopes with DRR eh?

Calliopes are powerful, but so is the priest and the hummel.   Push between the calliope barrages.  It does have a long ass cooldown.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Reality is that the calliope is the most powerful and most survivable artillery in the game. Once it's on the field you can only skirmish with the enemy, you can no longer engage en-masse. It is game breaking to the tactical aspects of the game.

Makes you wonder how i managed to win 90%+ of my axis games in EIR against companies that sometimes had 3+ calliopes with DRR eh?

Calliopes are powerful, but so is the priest and the hummel.   Push between the calliope barrages.  It does have a long ass cooldown.

Please refrain from acting in a matter that turns every thread you post in, into a flamewar. I would really appreciate that. This isn't an attack, just a polite request. Thanks, MvR.

[Malevolence]

Mannfred, that wasn't a personal attack, it was inductive reasoning.

If this is hard, yet I have done it and claim it is easy, then it must not be hard. Simple logic.

[scrapking]

Please refrain from acting in a matter that turns every thread you post in, into a flamewar. I would really appreciate that. This isn't an attack, just a polite request. Thanks, MvR.

QFT.  Starting to notice some trends around here.  Don't like someone's opinion?  Just start insulting them and acting like a know-it-all smartass.  Someone has a problem?  Obviously it is with them, and their inability to perform simple tasks or play the game well.  Hell it doesn't even matter if you disagree, you still have your audience.  Isn't that what its really about anyway?

That's apparently how its done in the interwebs.

[gamesguy1]

Reality is that the calliope is the most powerful and most survivable artillery in the game. Once it's on the field you can only skirmish with the enemy, you can no longer engage en-masse. It is game breaking to the tactical aspects of the game.

Makes you wonder how i managed to win 90%+ of my axis games in EIR against companies that sometimes had 3+ calliopes with DRR eh?

Calliopes are powerful, but so is the priest and the hummel.   Push between the calliope barrages.  It does have a long ass cooldown.

Please refrain from acting in a matter that turns every thread you post in, into a flamewar. I would really appreciate that. This isn't an attack, just a polite request. Thanks, MvR.

Uh, how have I flamed you in any manner?

I have no problem playing against calliopes, or winning against players using them.  I can only speak from personal experience, just like how you can only speak from your personal experience.

Perhaps you should play some games with calliopes in your company, so you can see how other players avoid them, and adopt these tactics for yourself?

[scrapking]

Mannfred, that wasn't a personal attack, it was inductive reasoning.

If this is hard, yet I have done it and claim it is easy, then it must not be hard. Simple logic.

Let me tell you how normal people think.

"If this is hard, yet you have done it and claim it easy, then you are trying to imply that I am stupid or flawed if I cannot also do it.  Simple logic."

Think about what you are saying first instead of spewing forth self righteous indignations.  

I can call you a fucking moron, or I can imply it oh-so-not subtly. In the end there is no difference.  It is just as rude, possibly more rude to be so indirect.  Try to take this as some constructive advice like "your breath stinks, man", instead of perceiving my attempting to further this pointless arguing.  Maybe you honestly don't realize you are doing it... but trust me.  You are doing it.

It comes off as incredibly pompous, self-righteous and insulting.  Not saying I'm perfect, but this isn't about me here, either.

[MannfredvonRitter]

There is ways to act which start flamewars without resorting to direct or personal attacks.

[Malevolence]

Sorry scrap, I can't continue to discuss things with you if you insult me.

[gamesguy1]

There is ways to act which start flamewars without resorting to direct or personal attacks.

You claimed that calliopes "broke the game", and since I can't speak from your perspective, I can only speak from mine, I win and have won plenty of games against companies with calliopes in them.  From my perspective, calliopes are very powerful, possibly borderline OP just like certain other units like paks and mortar HT, but they are not really game breaking.  Calliopes don't auto-win games for allies, at all.

No one is insulting anyone except maybe scrapking.