Tymathee
Donator
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« on: March 01, 2009, 01:58:02 am » |
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ATM the Sherman upgun is 140mu but I feel that's too much for just a penetration increase, and an area of effect and reload decrease.
I'm thinking it should maybe be about 80mu, which would be about the same as the standard axis skirt price (60+) I know they dont matter to one another but just in terms of abilities, I feel that they're just as useful, if not more. One decreases penetration, the other increases penetration.
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"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"
Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
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brn4meplz
Misinformation Officer
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 02:05:43 am » |
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So the 57mm is 110 Munitions and 380 manpower
where as an upgunned Sherman would be 395 manpower 80 munitions and 250 fuel. So for slightly more resources you want something that is immune to small arms fire, can keep up with it's target and can escape to repair?
Personally i think it's fine at 140 munitions. American tanks sporting the 76mm long barrel were rare in the second world war. maybe a slight doctrine choice discount for Armoured company players but certainly not on the magnitude of 60 munitions.
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He thinks Tactics is a breath mint Wow I think that was the nicest thing brn ever posted!  the pussy of a prostitute is not tight enough for destroy a condom  |
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| Scyntos
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 02:07:37 am » |
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maybe a slight doctrine choice discount for Armoured company players but certainly not on the magnitude of 60 munitions.
That sounds like a really good idea.
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Tymathee
Donator
Posts: 9741
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2009, 02:43:21 am » |
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i never said 60, i just made that number available because that's how much skirts cost. from 60-90 mu. You dont think 140's too high?
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brn4meplz
Misinformation Officer
Posts: 6952
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2009, 03:21:44 am » |
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discount for Armoured company players but certainly not on the magnitude of 60 munitions. |
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« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 03:24:24 am by brn4meplz »
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| BigDick
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2009, 04:02:19 am » |
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to answer your question: NO
but hey i want my knightscross for 200 mp and 50 muni
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TheDeadlyShoe
Weapon of Math Destruction
EIR Veteran Posts: 1399
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2009, 04:04:06 am » |
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I think the upgun should be cheap. In vCOH its a cheap global upgrade so that Shermans aren't obsoleted by the lategame units that they're facing all the time in EiR. I also think it should go back to costing fuel. Say like 40. Maybe 40 mun / 40 fuel. The setup where a 76mm costs more fuel than a PIV and a 75mm costs less worked pretty well. It's not strictly comparable to skirts because skirts work against all targets and the upgun only works against tanks. Also skirts have no drawbacks and the 76mm does. Virtually noone buys them at 140mu. So for slightly more resources you want something that is immune to small arms fire, can keep up with it's target and can escape to repair? hi and welcome to EVERY TANK. |
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« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 04:07:21 am by TheDeadlyShoe »
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| Sixpack
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2009, 05:06:30 am » |
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I think the upgun should be cheap. In vCOH its a cheap global upgrade so that Shermans aren't obsoleted by the lategame units that they're facing all the time in EiR.
I also think it should go back to costing fuel. Say like 40. Maybe 40 mun / 40 fuel. The setup where a 76mm costs more fuel than a PIV and a 75mm costs less worked pretty well.
It's not strictly comparable to skirts because skirts work against all targets and the upgun only works against tanks. Also skirts have no drawbacks and the 76mm does.
Virtually noone buys them at 140mu.
1)Skirts effect at guns and other tank cannons? 2)Then why do I see so many of them? |
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TheDeadlyShoe
Weapon of Math Destruction
EIR Veteran Posts: 1399
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2009, 05:33:10 am » |
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It depends on what version of the vanilla tables are being used. There's a 10% damage reduction from tank guns on the skirts in the most recent, or at least I think it's the most recent. It's really hard to tell whether something like a 10% damage reduction is working without labbing it. In any case the survivability difference against infantry is drastic, far more drastic than the difference the upgun makes against tanks. There are a few upguns around, but hey people buy flak vierlings too. |
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« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 05:37:08 am by TheDeadlyShoe »
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| BigDick
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2009, 05:34:57 am » |
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no in EiR skirts only effect infantry based AT weapons
they do nothing against tanks AT guns and stuff
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2009, 05:39:36 am » |
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i don't buy the upgun. Its too expensive for *me* but whether that makes it too expensive generally i don't know.
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Sach Wins!  Would people please stop killing my AVREs. Not cool.
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| Bubz
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 05:57:16 am » |
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Improves Sherman and Pershing penetration against Axis Armour, but however the Sherman will reload slower. The upgrade also increases the Sherman's Area of Effect's maximum radius, but reduces the damages within this; this has mixed effects on Infantry targets. |
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| Scyntos
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 06:12:54 am » |
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As of right now its pretty efficient to carry stickies on 6 of 12 rifleman along with 4 atgs and 2 m10s... 140mu is a lot for a 76mm.. however.. doctrine abilities and RBs aren't in yet.. so until they are I don't really have any quarrel with it staying the same. (Like how that's all essentially one sentence? I rule.)
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CafeMilani
Aloha
Posts: 2994
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 06:13:42 am » |
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the upgun is really strong..it penetrates everything
its worth its cost
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| Scyntos
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 06:15:32 am » |
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True.. but the M10 does almost the same job for 2/3 the cost.
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CafeMilani
Aloha
Posts: 2994
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 06:22:03 am » |
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no it doesnt kill infantry ( only by crushing but u can avoid crushing by clicking H )
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Unkn0wn
No longer retired
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 06:25:12 am » |
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no it doesnt kill infantry ( only by crushing but u can avoid crushing by clicking H )
Trust me, the 'H' trick is not reliable against a dedicated lawnmower. |
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| BigDick
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 06:26:06 am » |
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yeah and the upgunned got its buff by giving it more penetration to jagdpanther than vCOH
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Smokaz
Honoured Member
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 06:27:20 am » |
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Best way to dodge a crushing tank is not to slam halt orders repeatedly, but to give one stop order and then just let the AI do its best, in my experience.
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SlippedHerTheBigOne: big penis puma
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brn4meplz
Misinformation Officer
Posts: 6952
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2009, 10:05:17 am » |
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I think the upgun should be cheap. In vCOH its a cheap global upgrade so that Shermans aren't obsoleted by the lategame units that they're facing all the time in EiR. I also think it should go back to costing fuel. Say like 40. Maybe 40 mun / 40 fuel. The setup where a 76mm costs more fuel than a PIV and a 75mm costs less worked pretty well. It's not strictly comparable to skirts because skirts work against all targets and the upgun only works against tanks. Also skirts have no drawbacks and the 76mm does. Virtually noone buys them at 140mu. So for slightly more resources you want something that is immune to small arms fire, can keep up with it's target and can escape to repair? hi and welcome to EVERY TANK. A few Issues with this. First, EiR:R has a completely different Late Game the vCoH, so the argument thats it's needed in EiR is invalid. Second, Skirts only give a bonus against Infantry Anti tank weapons which is a flat 50% damage reduction. Nothing tank related. And as for your EVERY TANK comment, maybe you missed the point of my post comparing it to an ATG? Please read the entire thread before posting your comments. Infantry Anti-Tank Class weapons (specifically Bazookas, Panzerschrecks, Recoilless Rifles) previously had a flat 50% damage reduction vs. Axis targets upgraded with Armored Skirts, this has been changed over to a 25% damage reduction and 25% penetration reduction. This amount is relative to what the weapon was doing prior to the target having skirts.
-Tank Guns, Artillery, and Rockets do slightly less damage (.9 vs 1.0) to Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite Tanks with Armoured Skirts.
- AT guns do slightly less damage (1.35 vs 1.5) to Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite Tanks with Armoured Skirts. these are beta changes, And I'm fine withthe infantry AT change. I would agree that IF they implemented the tank/ATG/artillery change then the upgun would need a corresponding cost decrease. But still i don't see an issue with 140 munitions. I have one in my company that is vet 2 |
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