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Author Topic: Sherman Upgun too costly?  (Read 11715 times)
0 Members and 13 Guests are viewing this topic.
Tymathee Offline
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« on: March 01, 2009, 01:58:02 am »

ATM the Sherman upgun is 140mu but I feel that's too much for just a penetration increase, and an area of effect and reload decrease.

I'm thinking it should maybe be about 80mu, which would be about the same as the standard axis skirt price (60+) I know they dont matter to one another but just in terms of abilities, I feel that they're just as useful, if not more. One decreases penetration, the other increases penetration.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 02:05:43 am »

So the 57mm is 110 Munitions and 380 manpower

where as an upgunned Sherman would be 395 manpower 80 munitions and 250 fuel. So for slightly more resources you want something that is immune to small arms fire, can keep up with it's target and can escape to repair?


Personally i think it's fine at 140 munitions. American tanks sporting the 76mm long barrel were rare in the second world war. maybe a slight doctrine choice discount for Armoured company players but certainly not on the magnitude of 60 munitions.
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Scyntos Offline
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 02:07:37 am »

 
maybe a slight doctrine choice discount for Armoured company players but certainly not on the magnitude of 60 munitions.

That sounds like a really good idea.
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Tymathee Offline
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2009, 02:43:21 am »

i never said 60, i just made that number available because that's how much skirts cost. from 60-90 mu. You dont think 140's too high?
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2009, 03:21:44 am »

Quote
discount for Armoured company players but certainly not on the magnitude of 60 munitions.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 03:24:24 am by brn4meplz » Logged
BigDick
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2009, 04:02:19 am »

to answer your question: NO

but hey i want my knightscross for 200 mp and 50 muni
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TheDeadlyShoe Offline
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2009, 04:04:06 am »

I think the upgun should be cheap.  In vCOH its a cheap global upgrade so that Shermans aren't obsoleted by the lategame units that they're facing all the time in EiR.

I also think it should go back to costing fuel.  Say like 40. Maybe 40 mun / 40 fuel. The setup where a 76mm costs more fuel than a PIV and a 75mm costs less worked pretty well.

It's not strictly comparable to skirts because skirts work against all targets and the upgun only works against tanks.  Also skirts have no drawbacks and the 76mm does.

Virtually noone buys them at 140mu.

Quote
So for slightly more resources you want something that is immune to small arms fire, can keep up with it's target and can escape to repair?
hi and welcome to EVERY TANK.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 04:07:21 am by TheDeadlyShoe » Logged
Sixpack Offline
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2009, 05:06:30 am »

I think the upgun should be cheap.  In vCOH its a cheap global upgrade so that Shermans aren't obsoleted by the lategame units that they're facing all the time in EiR.

I also think it should go back to costing fuel.  Say like 40. Maybe 40 mun / 40 fuel. The setup where a 76mm costs more fuel than a PIV and a 75mm costs less worked pretty well.

It's not strictly comparable to skirts because skirts work against all targets and the upgun only works against tanks.  Also skirts have no drawbacks and the 76mm does.

Virtually noone buys them at 140mu.


1)Skirts effect at guns and other tank cannons?
2)Then why do I see so many of them?
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TheDeadlyShoe Offline
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2009, 05:33:10 am »

It depends on what version of the vanilla tables are being used.  There's a 10% damage reduction from tank guns on the skirts in the most recent, or at least I think it's the most recent.  It's really hard to tell whether something like a 10% damage reduction is working without labbing it.

In any case the survivability difference against infantry is drastic, far more drastic than the difference the upgun makes against tanks.

There are a few upguns around, but hey people buy flak vierlings too. Wink


« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 05:37:08 am by TheDeadlyShoe » Logged
BigDick
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2009, 05:34:57 am »

no in EiR skirts only effect infantry based AT weapons

they do nothing against tanks AT guns and stuff
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Sach Offline
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2009, 05:39:36 am »

i don't buy the upgun. Its too expensive for *me* but whether that makes it too expensive generally i don't know.
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Bubz Offline
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 05:57:16 am »

Quote
Improves Sherman and Pershing penetration against Axis Armour, but however the Sherman will reload slower. The upgrade also increases the Sherman's Area of Effect's maximum radius, but reduces the damages within this; this has mixed effects on Infantry targets.
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Scyntos Offline
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Posts: 87


« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 06:12:54 am »

As of right now its pretty efficient to carry stickies on 6 of 12 rifleman along with 4 atgs and 2 m10s... 140mu is a lot for a 76mm.. however.. doctrine abilities and RBs aren't in yet.. so until they are I don't really have any quarrel with it staying the same. (Like how that's all essentially one sentence? I rule.)
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CafeMilani Offline
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 06:13:42 am »

the upgun is really strong..it penetrates everything
its worth its cost
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Scyntos Offline
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 06:15:32 am »

True.. but the M10 does almost the same job for 2/3 the cost.
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CafeMilani Offline
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 06:22:03 am »

no it doesnt kill infantry ( only by crushing but u can avoid crushing by clicking H )
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 06:25:12 am »

no it doesnt kill infantry ( only by crushing but u can avoid crushing by clicking H )

Trust me, the 'H' trick is not reliable against a dedicated lawnmower. Wink
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BigDick
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 06:26:06 am »

yeah and the upgunned got its buff by giving it more penetration to jagdpanther than vCOH
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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 06:27:20 am »

Best way to dodge a crushing tank is not to slam halt orders repeatedly, but to give one stop order and then just let the AI do its best, in my experience.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2009, 10:05:17 am »

I think the upgun should be cheap.  In vCOH its a cheap global upgrade so that Shermans aren't obsoleted by the lategame units that they're facing all the time in EiR.

I also think it should go back to costing fuel.  Say like 40. Maybe 40 mun / 40 fuel. The setup where a 76mm costs more fuel than a PIV and a 75mm costs less worked pretty well.

It's not strictly comparable to skirts because skirts work against all targets and the upgun only works against tanks.  Also skirts have no drawbacks and the 76mm does.

Virtually noone buys them at 140mu.

Quote
So for slightly more resources you want something that is immune to small arms fire, can keep up with it's target and can escape to repair?
hi and welcome to EVERY TANK.



A few Issues with this. First, EiR:R has a completely different Late Game the vCoH, so the argument thats it's needed in EiR is invalid. Second, Skirts only give a bonus against Infantry Anti tank weapons which is a flat 50% damage reduction. Nothing tank related.

And as for your EVERY TANK comment, maybe you missed the point of my post comparing it to an ATG? Please read the entire thread before posting your comments.

Quote
Infantry Anti-Tank Class weapons (specifically Bazookas, Panzerschrecks, Recoilless Rifles) previously had a flat 50% damage reduction vs. Axis targets upgraded with Armored Skirts, this has been changed over to a 25% damage reduction and 25% penetration reduction. This amount is relative to what the weapon was doing prior to the target having skirts.

-Tank Guns, Artillery, and Rockets do slightly less damage (.9 vs 1.0) to Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite Tanks with Armoured Skirts.
- AT guns do slightly less damage (1.35 vs 1.5) to Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite Tanks with Armoured Skirts.

these are beta changes, And I'm fine withthe infantry AT change. I would agree that IF they implemented the tank/ATG/artillery change then the upgun would need a corresponding cost decrease. But still i don't see an issue with 140 munitions. I have one in my company that is vet 2


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