Capability Orientated Factional Analysis

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[sgMisten]

Download link for accompanying capability analysis file:


Attachment: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=488774

I've finally managed to play a decent number of games for all factions: Americans, British, Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite, with both experienced players and new players on my team, and against my team, and am able to make some observations on their capabilities in the EIR:R environment.

I'm aware that some balance issues may cease to exist once doctrines are in as stated by the devs, but I am also aware that the devs have stated that they are balancing in stages, starting with units before going on to doctrines. Hence, why I am writing this based on the current unit balance.

This analysis is based on how well that particular army deals with a particular situation, rather than focusing on a few select units as per standard balance discussions. This further focuses on the stock faction and its doctrines, discounting reinforcements, since the assumption is that the stock army with doctrine should be able to handle all situations.

Kindly refrain from posting unless you've looked through the attached excel file and read through all points properly. My intention in writing this post is to help the devs achieve unit balance in EiR:R so that the playing field is fairer for all players, irregardless of pet faction. If you spot any mistakes, do post them. (e.g. i am not entirely sure on vampire HT sight range)

Capabilities and Ranking
These are the major categories, and only units that are very good at that task, and decent at that task will be listed. Of course, this is purely my opinion. See attached file for more details and for all units that were considered.

Infantry crowd control (suppression, recrewability, mobility)
Wehr MG42
Ami HMG, Ami Quad HT, Brit Commando HMG

Recrewing Capability (numbers and cost)
Ami riflemen
Volksgrenadiers, Luftwaffe ground infantry

Manpacked AT (effective damage relative to enemy tank health)
Wehr Shreck, PE Shreck
Ami Recoilless Rifle

AT Specific Unit
Wehr Pak38
Ami 57mm, PE Marder 3

Active Vehicle Disabling
Brit Bren Gun Button, PE 'Treadbreaker'
Ami Stickybomb

Distance pressure ability (consistent killing power safely from a distance)
Ami sniper, Wehr sniper, Wehr mortar
Ami mortar, Brit commando mortar, PE mortar HT

Artillery
Ami Calliope
Ami Howie, Brit Priest, Brit 25 pounder, Wehr Nebel, PE Hummel

Scouting ability
Wehr motorbike
Ami Jeep, Brit Recon section

Conclusions
In a nutshell, Wehr holds the advantage in almost all aspects that matter, particularly in ease of use and direct damage. Wehr has the best infantry suppression, best anti-tank, best manpacked AT and best distance pressure capabilities (arguably the most lethal aspect). It has the means to hurt consistently at a distance, and the means to protect those units.

Americans typically come second in the above categories, with one major exception: Artillery, which allows them to remain competitive with Wehr.

The British have notable weaknesses in their ability to clear entrenched positions safely, with the exception of artillery, which is not ideal. Their distance pressure units basically have short range, exposing them to risk and hence counter-attack, which leads to significant attrition issues. Their primary vCoH advantages, resource and technology bonus, and strong slit trenches and emplacements, are either non-existent or implemented in a weaker form here.

Panzer Elite are average in everything, but have one major weakness: durability. Their special armour / low health works ok for infantry-based weapons, but with the multitude of special weapons such as tanks, grenades etc available from the get-go in EiR:R, their infantry melt fast. Their thin-skinned vehicles also suffer from similar issues. Both of these lead to significant attrition issues as well. Panzer Elite has many special units that are deadly, but they require a Wehr backbone.

Parting Comments
This are the capabilities of the 4 factions as I see it. Doctrines can and will change things in future. One good example is the old Airborne. Without raid assault, Airborne are quite weak. With raid assault, they become a powerful force for support team destruction. Based on available information, the new doctrines will not be as drastic in their buffs (e.g. limited numbers of off-maps).

However, with the stated intentions by the Dev Team to balance the units first, then doctrines in future, then I hope this analysis, and the discussion that follows, will help them do so from a different perspective than the usual balance discussions.

Here's to a balanced EiR:R for all.

Thank you.
Derrick "MistenTH" Heng

---

Recommendations*
Just doesn't feel complete if I don't post any recommendations. So adding them in. Have to keep in mind Dev preference for not changing vCoH stats unless absolutely necessary. These proposals are also only to address the most glaring issues, according to me. Blow by blow unit suggestions are not the scope of this thread. (added after Khorney's post)

Amis
Calliope: Increase pop cap to 11/12. Tricky to balance unit if not touching vCoH stats. It's already costly enough. Pop cap seems to be the other way, to gimp support units for it.

Brits
Give mortar pit and 25 pounder supercharge for now (at least until doctrines come in). This one ability alone should address their constant pressure problem. (update: Or just give this purely to royal canadian artillery, like how assault is unlocked purely for blitz at the moment)

Wehr
Reduce Pak cloak shot from cover to 1 shot. 3 shot cloak severely gimps allied armour in the current environment without OBM-like abilities.

PE
Let all PZG variants repair again.

Give repair speed bonus to all PE vehicles (say 2x of current).

Reduce pop cap of Marder 3 and Mortar HT by 1 pop each. High pop cap relative to other mortars/ATGs makes it hard for PE to field units.

Revert armour type and increase HP of PZGs to normalise their resistance to different weapon types. But since this is a massive vCoH change, the only other option is to reduce MP cost of PZGs by 10-15 MP. Makes them a bit zergy though, for an 'Elite' faction.

Give either the scout car and/or kettenkrad the sight range bonus that a jeep or motorbike gives.


---

Clarifications / Add ons to discussion from other forum members

'Distance pressure units' provide continual long range pressure and are more accurate. 'Artillery' has a longer cooldown between barrages and is less accurate. (credit: Variant13)

Stalemate breaker units (elite infantry, heavy tanks, tank rushes, crocodiles etc) are unique for each faction, but have been approximated to have the same effect in that they must get within weapons range to break through. They either try to overwhelm a position with their strength or die trying. (credit: Variant13)

[VariantThirteen]

I have not read the file, and probably won't for some time, however I will take you on two points unrelated to pure statistics.

Firstly, there is no real distinction between artillery and "distance pressure units" artillery is heavy distance pressure. If the piece is not neutralised, it will kill units every time it's ability comes off cooldown. This is why normally speaking Wehr were always forced to attack, even when defending in old school EIR (and why Blitzkrieg was such a successful doctrine, while Defensive wasn't). The Hummel has changed that a bit, as has treadbreaker, but Allies still have a very substantial advantage where the initiative is concerned.

Secondly, you have no catagory for "Stalemate breakers" - units that can be used to breach seemingly gridlocked situations and force a move in the lines. There are different from distance pressure units in that they are direct combat units that must participate in mutual combat, albeit with abilities that allow them to gain an upper hand and target units that are vulnerable to them, ignoring their designated counters while doing so. Typically they are elite infantry (Storms, Rangers, FJ's, ABs and Commandoes) but occasionally units like KTs can do it (TA is a retarded unit that needs a rework imo, and shouldn't be taken seriously in a proper analysis of the factions).

Once both of these are taken into account, I believe that US comes closer to being on par with Wehr than they do by your criteria, though I would rather not wade into a shitstorm by claiming the game is perfectly (or even well) balanced.

(Edit: if I were to pick a third thing, it would be that Pak38s are dual purpose distance pressure and AT units - they function as AT snipers. The Firefly normally works this way too. I don't know if they'd go high on your list or not either way. . .)

[sgMisten]

Thanks for bringing those up, 13.

I will differentiate between "distance pressure units" and "artillery" units now. "Distance pressure units" provide continual pressure. If they see a target, they can keep attacking, forcing the enemy to respond either by attacking immediately to remove the pressure, or to withdraw from a position. These units also have much better accuracy than artillery.

"Artillery", primarily because of the cooldown (though some have short cooldowns e.g. Nebelwerfer), and typically poor accuracy, do not force a response until you hear them firing, and they do not keep pressuring you as consistently as snipers or mortars would.

---

I did not specifically include stalemate breaker units, because all factions typically have some form of such units, which while not wholly accurate, I have approximated to be the same in effect. These units also have to get within weapons range and are vulnerable to counter attack.

Examples will be the elite infantry as you mentioned, crocodile sherman, crocodile churchill, KT, TA, and others. These units are however, 'infantry' and 'tanks', and are subject to anti-infantry and anti-tank counters, and can be attacked by them since their range is not long.

Does this address your points satisfactorily?

[Draken]

I read this whole topic including xls file. So your point is that Brits are UP right?

Now I noticed that most effective brit tactic is blobing combined infantry.

Maybe they are just hard to play, but the truth is that we don't see many good brit players.

[Unkn0wn]

Active Vehicle Disabling

Stickies?

Scouting ability

Scout car.

[Schultz]

Maybe its time to move away from the "brits are hard to play and we all need a better understanding of the new faction". The community plays british in the best effective way they can based on the current balance.
They cant deal suppression, they cant have a mobile atg running along their infantry. Blob tactics make up for all these. Button + 4 piats. Heroic charge, 2 bren tommies, rifle nades, piats etc.

[sgMisten]

Active Vehicle Disabling

Stickies?

Scouting ability

Scout car.

I included stickies in the .xls file, but do not hold the opinion that they are as effective as in old EiR. Amis have no discounts at the moment that allow them to spam riflemen and stickies in the numbers in the past that made the stickybomb as dangerous.

Does the scout car or the radio equipped scout car have additional sight range? It seemed to have the standard sight range.

[Unkn0wn]

It has a sniper detection of 9, like in beta. It used to have only 0.
This makes it the PE's best bet against snipers, together with the ketten but that doesn't have any weapon.
For pure scouting, the kettenkrad should be in there.

I think stickies are still valuable, from a pure objective stand point they should be in that list.

[sgMisten]

It has a sniper detection of 9, like in beta. It used to have only 0.

I think stickies are still valuable, from a pure objective stand point they should be in that list.

I meant whether the scout car has extra sight range, sniper detection aside. Extra sight range is useful for spotting for the mortar HT, and to help position the Marder 3 before it locks down in range of a 57mm. (Like how jeep/bike spots for sniper or tank sniping)

You have a point on stickies, adding it in.

---

Draken / Schultz:
I am of the opinion that Brits have an issue with attrition in their current form, even with blobbing as one of their effective tactics. And I also hold a similar opinion that Panzer Elite have an issue with attrition in their current form, with the weaknesses of their units.

[Unkn0wn]

I meant whether the scout car has extra sight range, sniper detection aside. Extra sight range is useful for spotting for the mortar HT, and to help position the Marder 3 before it locks down in range of a 57mm. (Like how jeep/bike spots for sniper or tank sniping)

Fair enough, then you should add the kettenkrad as its probably the most cost & pop effective scouting unit in the game.

[sgMisten]

Fair enough, then you should add the kettenkrad as its probably the most cost & pop effective scouting unit in the game.

Does the Ketten have extra sight range? I didn't notice it having any. My criteria for an effective scout unit is extra sight range. While it's cheap, if it only has standard sight range it's a job that regular infantry can do anyway.

[Killer344]

This is why normally speaking Wehr were always forced to attack, even when defending in old school EIR (and why Blitzkrieg was such a successful doctrine, while Defensive wasn't)

mmm... no... not at all?, the defensive doctrine had the power to deal with any kind of artillery, to have an awesome extra hp boost to all your units, stukas, out attrition power and the chance to know at any moment where you enemies were....... I really wonder why do you think blitzkrieg was the most successful doctrine.

[SaintPauli]

Misten - Your analysis is mostly correct if you are only comparing certain types of units. The problem with balance is interdependency of units. The Wehrmacht might have the best MG, Mortar and AT gun but they all depends on protection. It is a fragile card house that falls down once you remove just a single element. A single American sniper (Which there currently is no reliably counter for once they gain vet) takes down the MGs. Rangers, backed up by AT guns, then storm the axis mortars and AT guns. Should the rangers be caught by an extra MG in the back they still have fire up and grenades (more effective because of fire up).

Once the axis mortars are down the allies set up MGs in building and slowly creep up with mortars/snipers/AT guns. The rangers run back to the Triage Center to heal. If you doubt the effectiveness of this strategy look at the replays Killer and Shultz posted.  

You can argue that Killer and Shultz are both better players than me (at least I know how to stack  ) but that still does not invalidate my argument.

[AmPM]

Best unit for PE vs Snipers is just using a Vampire for detection, its also a good scout, at least for infantry, and your ears can tell you where the tanks are.

[sgMisten]

It is a fragile card house that falls down once you remove just a single element. A single American sniper (Which there currently is no reliably counter for once they gain vet) takes down the MGs.

Does the Wehr sniper not do the same to Amis?

[SaintPauli]

Does the Wehr sniper not do the same to Amis?

Yes but Axis snipers has to deal with bigger squad sizes, elite troops with fire up, random Cali hits and soon recon and strafing runs… 

The biggest problem however is the veterancy that makes counter sniping against the odds (you only have 28% chance of hitting a v2 sniper).

[SaintPauli]

Anyway this was not meant to turn into a discussion about the sniper. I only meant to highlight the interdependency of the units and point out how one imbalance affects other units.   

[Mysthalin_Axis]

*Updated*


I personaly believe Amis and Wehr as as balanced vs each other as they were in EiR(other than borked shreck) - I don't think mentioning them is even needed.
It is, however, the brits and PE that are finding the most trouble in the current enviroment. Neither of them have reliable break through capabilties. Both these factions need either reinforcements from the other armies, have another player in their team of the different faction, or be playing versus each other(pure brits vs pure PE) to be effective.



Brits currently have one non-doctrinal tactic - lieutenantbased blobbing. And that means shit hits the fan if you're hit by an HMG and a sniper/ LATHT/shreck suddenly gibs your lieutenant so you're left in the open, at the HMG and supporting unit's mercy.

The cromwell is rather unreliable vs infantry, always hit by shreks(and I mean always), and not able to crush the infantry due to the instant-stop should it run over a guy. Flank speed helps GTFO or GTFI the battle to defeat or run away from a pak or P4(circlestrafe possible with flank speed, however prone to failure due to cromwell turret rotation speed sucking).

The Stuart is just not worth it - 2 shrek shots gib it and hit it very consistently, not to mention paks, so the slim chance of gibbing a blob with a canister round is very poor. Only time I had a stuart that pulled it's weight was when the enemy units were concentrating on a cromwell and churchill that were also in the engagement. 1 Ostwind > 2 stuarts, easily.

PIATs - inconsistent accuracy, however very very fun when blobbed up. Too bad they're so vulnearable to everything and anything that as much as coughs their way. That said, ambushing a sniper is great.
Bren Gun Carrier(non MMG) - way overpriced, way slow, way low HP, way low damage. No reason to buy this unit, because if anything shoots the bren gun carrier while a unit is in it, the guys inside die(P4 shot equals half dead sapper squad inside).

Fireflies - rather extreme cost, made up for it by just as extreme range and penetration. Could be a VERY useful asset if it had anything resembling a fire rate that is at least a bit more common that complete lunar eclipses without a command tank. Dies fast if cought up with, good to damage P4s. However, not for the popcap price attached to it, and the insta-gib-ability paks have versus it.

Cromwell Command Tank - most use in it comes from the creeping smoke barrage, good bonuses for the firefly and as a damage shield. If CSB was unlimited uses, cooldown based, would actually be worth the cash. However, I'd rather buy 2 stuarts than this right now. Scratch that, Tetrarch and a Bren MMG.

Bren MMG - good for buttoning, decent anti infantry. Negated by the fact it "OMGWTF?!?!?!" dies to paks almsot instantly, a shrek shot + 2 Kar98 shots is all it takes to kill this baby. Nice support weapon, useful vs PE. Not so much vs wehr.

Tetrarch - the little tank that could. Says it all. Dodges shreks at close range(sometimes), can actually zoom past a pak without taking a shot some times. Can circlestrafe tanks, but very well microed ones is still a tough bunny. Better HP than the stuart(takes 3 shreks to kill it), and actually has damage and penetration to write home about. Better range than a sherman and rather good accuracy versus infantry is really useful, however the targetting tables make sure it will try and kill a pioneer before rear-shotting that 5 HP Tiger ace...

Churchill - about as useful as a Church Hill - takes about as many shots to kill this thing. Nothing more than a damage sponge that can't fire back properly(even though do both things better than the CCT, the much larger cost and popcap strain don't really make it worth it). Think of it as the failed version of the KT the allies have.

Churchill AVRE - the funfunfun tank. If you ever wanted a StuH that can rape even more - this is exactly it. Paks are a bitch vs this, though.

Churchill Croc - the best breakthrough unit the brits can get. Likes to rape blobs, and sometimes shoot at tanks. Detests paks, at least until it gets close enough. Appropriate pricing and popcap have made sure it's usefullness is limited.

Emplacements - 20 second build time and actually not insta-dieing to mortars has made these semi-useful. Semi-useful as in "omfg expensive" and "we can't cancels mid-building or we retreatz noez :O"

25 Pounder - Good thing it's not doctrinal, and that it costs only as much as 3 stuarts(fuel wise), it's about as effective as they are(no canister). Uber short range retained from vCoH make sure you're not gonna use this unless your tank availability is at max, and you don't want stuarts. And you DON'T want stuarts.

Expert engineers - not worth it seeing as the sapper repair rate is good enough as is - better get either absolutely nothing or MOAR PIATS!

Rifle Nades - sheer epic shot from something resembling a stick. The high cost made sure it's not OP. Boy did it make sure it's not OP. Smoke is nice, though.

Bren gun upgrade - buttoning is overrated, the DPS is quite cool. I'd rather more riflenades.

CCS - can we get an even longer cooldown on this? pretty please? for costing 25 percent more than a triage and no longer retaining the "collect dead bodies" ability on it, it's really not worth to buy this when it has such a long cooldown. Either half the cooldown, or set healing aura range to triage and set the same price, so it is actually a triage.

Commandos - cost 40 manpower more and 70 muni more than KCH. About as useful as half a KCH squad. Low health, bad armor type, losing out to stormies 1v1 at close range(non upgraded). Delivered by glider, their smoke is cool when it can be used in conjunction with a nade and doesn't take 10 hours to recharge(and is free now). Demo charge useless, should be useable everywhere, not like the engineer demo(especialy for 80 munitions).

Commando HMG - cool, could use being able to smoke-cloaked while still set up to be able to escape tanks properly.

Commando mortar - second most useful unit in the commando tree, right after the tetrarch. Could use being able to smoke-cloak while set up, as well. Maybe some extra damage, but it's a very nice unit as is.

Commando PIATs - useless for their cost. You pay more manpower and more munitions, for less men and weaker platform than sappers. Sappers can (OMG!) at least cloak in cover! Not only that, but they can actually heal the real AT unit you're using as the commando doctrine - the tetrarch. Commando PIATs can use smoke camo, but that's (Very) temporary, and can in no way be more efficient than a sapper squad at combat : they die just as fast to small arms - even faster, actually, due to 3 men as opposed to 4. Time to half their cost - both muni and manpower for them to come even NEAR cost effectiveness. Even in vCoH they cost less than sappers, and they don't pay muni for their PIATs. Here they cost both more MP, cost PPs to unlock, and cost more muni than sapper PIATs. They're really useless for their current cost.

Recon tommies - rather useful unit - only unit in the brittish army to not have eye problems and actually be able to see there's a big huge tank moving up 45 metres ahead. Designate marksman is useful, however doesn't help vs MGs that much due to omfg suppressed. Best used in conjunction with a rifle smoking in order to be able to GTFO after the deed is done. Availability cap at 2 is pretty severe on these guys, could use alleviation.

Captain - haven't utilised this as much as I could have, partly due to the fact a lieutenant can have heroic charge and that's what I'd use my popcap on instead. Aura effect is quite useful, doesn't help much on the offense, though. Could use a cooldown decrease effect on 25 pdrs, when in the same sector, maybe?

Lieutenant - the highest casualty rate wielding unit in the brittish army. Dies almost every game - it doesn't even need to be used agresively/stupidly to die, he just likes dieing for some reason. Tends to do a lot to make up for his cost, though, and his aura bonus is what helps him die so much, I guess. Very useful unit, heroic charge could use cooldown increase + slowdown effect takeaway, maybe? I like it as is, but the HC is a bit too often - I can understand the axis players.

Main problem with brits is they can't counter mortars and snipers without a massive armor rush to kill either(and both unreliably). Heck, they can't break through at all, other than(Very) massed arms. Perhaps a smoke ability on both their mortars could help by just a bit? I know for certain I'd have used it a lot to help my cromwells dodge at least ONE shrek shot at max range while charging an entrenched wehr position... Anyways, fact is, brits need a lot of work, and quite some love(and some hate at some points) to become viable. A 2 wehr vs 2 brit matchup is pretty much insta-lose for the brittish, even more so if an urban map is played. Outmortared, out HMGed, out armored, the brits die painfully slowly, yet consistently. At least they get that short spark of joy as their AVRE instagibs a squad, a PIAT squad ambushes a sniper, or 5 tetrarchs land behind enemy lines to finish off a KT... And no, bren carrier clowncar dieing with it's whole "garrison" doesn't spark joy. At all.

*Decided to post this whole mega post in a seperate thread.*

[sgMisten]

Anyway this was not meant to turn into a discussion about the sniper. I only meant to highlight the interdependency of the units and point out how one imbalance affects other units.   

Thx Pauli, we don't want to rehash the usual unit arguments here, it's been done enough.

[Igawa]

From the few games i've played as PE recently, i've found that the hole in crowd control to be a big problem. As of now there really isn't a good way, barring a P4IS, to make a ranger doom blob think twice about charging your front line. Best way to deal direct suppression as PE is the inf halftrack, which are far more fragile than a HMG squad in most situations, cannot be garrisoned (huge drawback) and deals terrible suppression compared to other MGs

It also makes it extremely hard to attack, because you can't grab a building with a HMG and use it as a foothold, which as wher is the #1 way to advance, in order to get some protection from couterattack on your fragile troops. Imagine a town with a rifle blob running around inside, with maybe a few MGs on the outskirts. You bombard one of them out with concentrated mortar fire, rush your 4 PE squads (a LOT let me tell you) up and garrison...only to look on the 3 squad rifle blob running to counterattack, smiles on their faces and grenades in hand. Edit: Or god forbid, rangers, in which case you might as well run away and not give them the XP

As wher you would likely win because the rifles would get pwned by suppression and you can move your stuff in and get a perimeter, but as PE you'd just get thrown out. Or blown out, rather. Then another MG shows up and you're back to square one, sans 4 squads of PZGrens

If things come down to a war of attrition, especially against Ami, the PE are almost definitely doomed. Yes they have better mortars but the health of their mainline troops is terrible, and there is no good way to set up a definite front line. They don't have the crowd control to stop infantry attacks, and combined arms is almost impossible to stop, especially if they're dilligent about moving up their AT guns.