The Pershing

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[Scyn]

Making this a thread since it seems a number of us found some common ground.

My main issue with the pershing is it's penetration; there's really no reason why it shouldn't have a good penetration value against Hetzers and heavy tanks. It so happens that the pershing will prioritize the Hetzer leaving the pershing to be attacked by panther.. or whatever is there. The Hetzer can penetrate the pershing's front armor, so ignoring the Hetzer and going around it to kill something else isn't something advisable.

My suggestion is to change the veterancy bonus obtained at vet 1 to include Penetration +1.2. This doesn't mean I want it's other bonus removed (*received damage 0.85*). The reason for this is that every Wehrmacht tank gets *received damage 0.85* at vet 1.

Another issue of mine is what Smokaz brought to the table - The pershing handles like a shopping cart. And I don't think it's because of the track movement.. I think it's due to how manueverable the pershing is so the turret does not respond correctly to the movement of the vehicle. However I think this may be corrected with it's current veterancy bonus at vet 2, which is *turret rotation +1.2*. So I think the handling of the tank is fine for now.

Edit: Lets also try and keep in mind this thread is in response to an impending calliope nerf which is duly needed. But at the same time there needs to be a change to the pershing so that the armored company isn't entirely nullified as the reason people use the calliope is due to the fact the pershing is considerably weaker than axis armor.

[BigDick]

to have a better overview about the pershing abilities

here some overview of the pershing compared to a panther (very similar pricing in EiR:R)

Panther:





Pershing:

Making this a thread since it seems a number of us found some common ground.

My main issue with the pershing is it's penetration; there's really no reason why it shouldn't have a good penetration value against Hetzers and heavy tanks.

its penetration against axis heavy tanks is not more worse then the panthers penetration against allies heavy tanks

and the pershing gets a decent range multiplier on penetration

it has a great rear penetration to hetzer side/rear armor (since there is no side armor and 50% will hit the rear)

and hetzer is really no danger for a pershing with his less then 40% health and crappy gun and no turret

 It so happens that the pershing will prioritize the Hetzer leaving the pershing to be attacked by panther.. or whatever is there.

wrong panther priority >> hetzer priority

The Hetzer can penetrate the pershing's front armor, so ignoring the Hetzer and going around it to kill something else isn't something advisable.

every tank can penetrate every other tanks frontal armor....

its basic penetration to a pershing is 0.325 with a long range penetratiuon modifier of 0.805 makes a penetration of 0.26
that is pretty crap

compared to the way around...

what are you talking about man?

My suggestion is to change the veterancy bonus obtained at vet 1 to include Penetration +1.2. This doesn't mean I want it's other bonus removed (*received damage 0.85*). The reason for this is that every Wehrmacht tank gets *received damage 0.85* at vet 1.

my suggestion than is give the other tanks +1.2 penetration modifier too because the pershing get it

Another issue of mine is what Smokaz brought to the table - The pershing handles like a shopping cart. And I don't think it's because of the track movement.. I think it's due to how manueverable the pershing is so the turret does not respond correctly to the movement of the vehicle. However I think this may be corrected with it's current veterancy bonus at vet 2, which is *turret rotation +1.2*. So I think the handling of the tank is fine for now.

its turret rotation is better than a tiger....

actually a pershing is a mixture between a tiger and a panther stats wise

and compared to your imba hetzer it has an infinite higher turret rotation

so give a hetzer a turret at vet1?

[Mysthalin]

400/990 * 100% > 40%, actually.
0.47 chance to penetrate with a 0.9 long range modifier(which kicks in sooner on the pershing than on the hetzer) it's actually a 0.42 chance to penetrate the hetzer(you have a higher chance to penetrate a tiger/panther than a hetzer, lol).
Count in the fact the pershing has a chance to miss the hetzer as well : 0.85 chance in general, and an extra 0.75 at long range(which is the same as medium for a hetzer).
That ammounts to a whooping 63.75 percent chance to hit the hetzer at long range.
0.6375*0.42 = 0.26 chance that a pershing will do damage on a hetzer when it shoots.
26% = 26%.

[BigDick]

lol nice rotating with numbers into your biased way

makes the pershing have almost doubled penetration to hetzer then the way around
on top of that it makes 56% more damage per shot and has almost doubled HP
and a infinite higher turret rotation

who ever has problems with a pershing fighting a hetzer (actually called tankhunter but it sucks hunting tanks) should quit


and i can rotate with numbers too
since the rear penetration is 11.xx we have an average penetration of pershing to hetzer of (11.xx+0.42)/2=> round 6 penetration pershing to hetzer

hetzer to pershing is (0.325+4.9)/2=> round 2.6 penetration hetzer to pershing

makes the pershing have 230% penetration advantage

with 56% more damage per shot and an higher reload and the fact with the turret rotation a pershing does 717% more damage to the hetzer than arround 

[Pak88mm]

just get a command tank with a pershing and watch it go to town

[Mysthalin]

you're a retard bigdick.
Only reason I can think of why you would write this bullshit.
Therefore, I'm petitioning, officialy, a ban of all forum priviledges you have - it's for the safety of all of us.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

im pretty sure the hetzer is higher priority in EiR.

[Scyn]

just get a command tank with a pershing and watch it go to town

Yes, this is true. but not everyone will get the RSE reinforcements to buff the pershing. So a command tank while viable for one player, another player may still be stuck with a subpar pershing which isn't really acceptable considering that nothing on the axis side affects their armor but the armor is still much much better.

[BigDick]

im pretty sure the hetzer is higher priority in EiR.

afaik the devs changed only the prio of puma against AT guns
that puma will target ATgun crew instead of infantry

[RikiRude]

this is funny, we have to compare the pershing to a normal axis tank, THAT right there shows how crappy it is. That would be like comparing the Tiger to a normal sherman.

my main gripe with the pershing is this, it's a tank hunter, it does shitty against infantry where as the tiger will wreak havoc on both, it will pretty consistently kill 3 men in a squad, while the pershing will only kill one, MAYBE two if you are lucky. Also tiger wrecks allied AT guns, usually can 2 shot them, if it doesn't kill the crew in 2 shots, itll most likely destroy the gun in two shots. takes the pershing about 3-4 shots to kill a pak, and it probably won't kill the crew.

So since it's main job is killing tanks, it should be MUCH better at killing them. I've watched as a panther penetrated all 3-4 shots on my pershings front armor as my pershing bounced or missed the panthers front armor. I've also sat and shot at grens in a building, 4-5 shots later only 1 guy has been killed.

Now I do agree a pershing with a CCT is very powerful, but that's like saying a Tiger with a ATHT with tread breaker is really powerful. So lets leave the CCT out of it, because that would be saying the only way to make armor useful (at this point in EIRR) would be to always get the brit reinforcements with the CCT.

[Tymathee]

^^^ even then its only a reload and sight modifier. The devs are against changing stats, but it's more useful than a Panther, so it's fine where it's at IMO. I don't think the Pershing should change, like one said above, it's a mix between panther and tiger and the price reflects it.

I think where the issue comes from is that axis at > allied at so even though the pershing has more health than a panther, it's a lot easier to take out a pershing with wehr/pe than taking out a panther with ami/brit.

So the question, do you price it or change anything because what its fighting against has a much easier chance of killing it? Should the Pershing be cheaper than a Panther because the Wehr can kill the Pershing in an easier way than the americans can kill a Panther? I have no idea...price wise, it's balanced, so, I say leave the Pershing where it is.

[Smokaz]

Panther sucks too imo

16 pop for dedicated AT... you can never bring it on when you really need it, upgunned shermans can penetrate it and it cant help you with anything else than medium tanks. It gets raped by the same things that rape the tigers. A pak + Shrek is infinitely more flexible than a panther as infantry trying to rush them can be supressed or blocked, at guns firing from long range is hard to "deny" without panther taking damaged.

Sure, if they have more than than 1 sherman on the field you can excuse using it.. but its not pop effective. It has no punch for pop. When a 9 pop single shrek + pak shot slams into a sherman, it backs off and does not return. If a panther is there, it tries to lure it into its own at.. or get rear shots on it-.

Tbh if they increase pershing accuracy against infantry (why should these high pop tanks only be good at one thing) panther needs some love too.

Imo the smaller pop a unit has, the less versatile it should be (with some infantry exceptions). Big pops need to reflect their investment and have to be able to serve more than 1 little role.

[RikiRude]

nvm, making a new thread questioning a price decrease on the panther.

[BigDick]

this is funny, we have to compare the pershing to a normal axis tank, THAT right there shows how crappy it is. That would be like comparing the Tiger to a normal sherman.

when we get a tiger for 250fuel we should do that right..nothing more to say

my main gripe with the pershing is this, it's a tank hunter, it does shitty against infantry

i dont think so

So since it's main job is killing tanks, it should be MUCH better at killing them. I've watched as a panther penetrated all 3-4 shots on my pershings front armor as my pershing bounced or missed the panthers front armor. I've also sat and shot at grens in a building, 4-5 shots later only 1 guy has been killed.

its main job is being a heavy battle tank and that role fits perfectly for almost the same price as the panther

Now I do agree a pershing with a CCT is very powerful, but that's like saying a Tiger with a ATHT with tread breaker is really powerful. So lets leave the CCT out of it, because that would be saying the only way to make armor useful (at this point in EIRR) would be to always get the brit reinforcements with the CCT.

then a pershing with a sticky riflemen is very powerful too

[Ununoctium]

16 pop for dedicated AT...

Imo the smaller pop a unit has, the less versatile it should be (with some infantry exceptions). Big pops need to reflect their investment and have to be able to serve more than 1 little role.

Nobody listened to my pop vs effectiveness arguments around tanks vs infantry but now I have Smokaz on my side.

[Mysthalin]

Dick, just shut up, alright?
Noone's listening to you so don't bother - if you don't believe me, refference the banning thread for how much your oppinion is valued around here.
Just, don't bother.

[CafeMilani]

ur lucky that unknown is your friend because u normally should have banned for all your insults and attacks and ur "Petition to ban Aloha and..." topic ("retard", "prick", blahblah)
im just wondering, maybe some other mods should take a look at this

[Warbirds]

Aloha, maybe you haven't noticed it, but you've insulted people a lot more than you probably should in the past.

[CafeMilani]

yes i did but mystalin was and is baiting us much more and keeps insulting us.

so where are the mods? except unknown...

[Unkn0wn]

Aloha stop being an idiot, and Mysth stop getting into fights with him and Bigdick. Take it to pms or you'll both suffer the consequences.