[All] Manpack AT, Skirts, Pz4

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[MistenTH]

After undergoing a lot of confusion over Relic's cryptic balance statements, I've dug down deep into CoH-stats to develop information of the effectiveness of current manpack AT options against the Pz4 only. Note that damage/penetration is NOT a flat 25/25 but varies from AT weapon to AT weapon. Note that I did not take scatter into account.

Presenting: Deh spreadsheet of doom:



My Conclusions
Old skirts on Pz4 were ridiculous in their effectiveness, but this was acceptable in old EiR because skirts were tied to vet 2, so such tanks were truly elite and rare.

Then they were too effective in 003, basically invalidating manpacked AT, being purchasable for all tanks.

But now in 004 with beta skirt changes, skirts are iffy. They increase damage resistance by still a decent amount(including vs ATGs, according to beta changelog) from manpack AT from the front, though not as much as previously. However getting hit from the rear does significant damage.

The big difference in damage is because relic used modifier of 1.6 for Bazooka, Pshreck and PIAT vs Pz4. Old skirts reduced it to 0.5, which is about 30% damage, which was ridiculous. Now it's 1.2 with skirts.

Take note that according to CoH-stats, the PIAT penetration value was not changed at all from no/old to new skirts.

Seems that with PIAT's new effectiveness, it's too cheap, whereas RRs are overpriced. Bazookas look to be on par with Wehr Panzershreck, but they have a bigger scatter, so perhaps slightly overpriced. PE Panzershreck is a little overpriced since it does less damage than Wehr Panzershreck.

However, this is in relation just to Pz4 and equivalent tank (e.g. Sherman). Have to look out for HTs/Light Vehs etc too. Easiest thing perhaps is to look at damage modifiers for the Pz4 and other tanks, and changing price or stats of skirts. Hope this helps the dev team in balancing them.

Minor error: 1 RR is 7.5 mun more than I used in my calculation, just a small change in numbers, but basically means RRs are more expensive.

[Tymathee]

but....you can't price schrecks to the p4.... as for the allied at, meh. I dont know. Lets let the games go out cuz stats are different than what you see in game sometimes in how people use those units.

[sgMisten]

but....you can't price schrecks to the p4.... as for the allied at, meh. I dont know. Lets let the games go out cuz stats are different than what you see in game sometimes in how people use those units.

just putting the shreck in for comparison. But yea, cause the Sherman doesn't get a 1.6x modifier against a shreck. But it does explain why a captured Pshreck totally pwns Pz4s.

I did this because there's been a huge furore over how effective the new PIAT is, which can also double as semi-decent AI at the current momment.

Edit: Grrr this is annoying. Went to CoH-stats to check something and the modifier for Pz4 was listed at 1.0. Seems like there are a few versions of the target tables floating around that site, each with different values.

The stats for the bazooka, PIAT and RR ought to be correct though. Let me know if you find out otherwise.

[Smokaz]

Misten: Stolen panzershreks against p4 were nerfed in beta, 1.6 is the correct damage modifier for zooks against unskirted p4..

I think the shots to kill a p4 says it all for the bazooka. It rapes the p4 without skirts, it rapes almost every single vehicle PE has and EVENTUALLY people WILL be fielding vet 3 rangers (i got my 2 squads in 10 games last patch) which gets additional 1.2 penetration to their bazookas. Noone give me any BS about rangers not being one of the easiest infantry types to vet up cause they damn well are with triages, fireup and thompsons.

The 57mm is the MAIN at for americans and it is very good at it now that AP rounds have been fixed. With AP rounds, a 57 almost two shots an ostwind and kills most PE vehicles in 2 hits.

 I do not think it encourages intelligent play to give zooks "high" frontal penetration as not only are rangers currently godly against all infantry with thompsons but overeffective zooks will make them smash any most tank with less armor than a panther and, this also causes them to overshadow airborne as the main american anti-tank elite inf. What you will be seeing is blobs of zook rangers taking on armor frontally. The P4 is in a very vulnerable position if you make infantry at able to bully it in a world of upgunned shermans, fireflies and button.

Like the shrek and the pak, the elite inf handheld armor is supposed to work in conjunction with 57's, upgunned shermans and M10s.

As a badass ranger spammer, I must say that it looks very tempting to buy lots of zook squads to counter most axis armor atm. Especially since two ranger squads (fireup to medium range) will bring a p4 to 10% health (unusable for anything) in one volley.

Tbh skirted tanks should require flanking to hit with bazookas, thats why you bring a 57 with your infantry at so that if he tries to circle it he gets rearshotted or dies trying to duke it out with the 57 at long range.

RRs should be high accuracy, high penetration and reduced damage from skirts, zooks should be high damage, medium/low penetration frontally and require flank shots to own armor.

[salan]

the modifier was 1.6 in the rgds misten

[sgMisten]

Take note the 45% chance of penetration for bazooka, but yea I haven't seen a ranger blob with bazookas yet. Look at damage for PIAT, it's even higher. And since you can fire over obstructions, it tends to be easier to get side hits. Though you can avoid it if you just keep moving.

Salan: Thanks, calculations are correct then. But as Tym pointed out, not too much point to put in a Pshreck vs Pz4, but well just for fun.

[Schultz]

What smokaz said. One of the problems of the current patch is that some units are even better than they were in both AI and AT and quite cheap. Like sappers and rangers. Whats the point in that. You increased panzerschrek price like that was the problem in balance..
Well decrease availability in stormies and upgrade prices so i can do the same...
Especially the sapper unit is so rediculous now. Spammed without constraints.
Mortar pits + boffors + 17 pounder then you can spam tommies and sappers all you want. With their low pop these emplacements should be considered support teams ?
Forcing people to either spam infantry blobs, or doom fortress, or artillery spam is what ruins the game now imo.

[Smokaz]

The zook performance against nonskirted tanks more along with their perks as combined assault infantry more than justifies them to have trouble with skirted tanks. Whats the point in getting a 90 munition skirt upgrade if RR damage is only reduced by 25%, zooks will wtfpwn it when they penetrate and piats will land rear shots through ballistics?

[BigDick]

before the last mod-patch tanks (like wehr panzer4 or PE panzer4 but actually more the wehr panzer4 because the PE sucks) was the only real counter against bloobs of doom

now since skirts are nerfed piats buffed 17 pounder buffed...a panzer4 is useless against blobs
it get mobbed down in no time

before 004 there were just blobs of doom counterable by anti infantry tanks
now there are blobbs of doom devastating infantry and tanks
now there are sim city doom fortresses and constant artillery barraging

it is even more worse than 2v2 vCOH ranked 1 brit+1us

[gamesguy2]

Its called a nebelwerfer.

[BigDick]

Its called a nebelwerfer.

PE can get this?

i've one nebelwerfer in my wehr companies (it'S only one in supply) but i allways have to praise to god that it stay alive constantly artillery baraging and blobrushs

[gamesguy2]

PE can get this?

i've one nebelwerfer in my wehr companies (it'S only one in supply) but i allways have to praise to god that it stay alive constantly artillery baraging and blobrushs

PE has an easier time with brits due to the now very good PGs, ACs, IHTs, etc.

[Tymathee]

Its called a nebelwerfer.

PE can get this?

i've one nebelwerfer in my wehr companies (it'S only one in supply) but i allways have to praise to god that it stay alive constantly artillery baraging and blobrushs

hmg? lmg? stuka? stug? p4? flame pio? lots of choices...

[BigDick]

hmg? lmg? stuka? stug? p4? flame pio? lots of choices...

no comment other than you Fail

or make a strat guide (with replays) how to own blobs with stugs p4 and stuff

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Last time I ran the numbers it was 8 bazooka hits to kill a p4, 12 with skirts.  That's counting penetration and bounce damage.  In practice it will tend to be higher than that because of shots bouncing at 5% and non-kill criticals. Usually though a non-kill critical is almost as good as a kill.

I assume 50% accuracy (35% long range, + occasional shots at medium, +scatter).

So figure 16 shots to kill unskirted, 24 to kill skirted.

Neither number counts rear hits.

(for reference, I just ran it again.)

45% penetration base, 150 damage base.  3 penetrations 450 damage. 4 bounces -> 540 damage. 1 penetration or 2 bounces to 5%: call it 8.

33% penetration skirts, 112 damage skirts.  4 penetrations 448 damage. 8 bounces -> 582 damage.  Tank is 5%.

***

Yes HMGs work pretty damn well against sapper blobs. Try it.

[Tymathee]

hmg? lmg? stuka? stug? p4? flame pio? lots of choices...

no comment other than you Fail

or make a strat guide (with replays) how to own blobs with stugs p4 and stuff

lol fuck off dude seriously, you are the biggest annoyance on this damn board. If you can't use stugs and p4's to combat blobs, you need to l2p. You wanted to try and "tutor" me cuz you think i suck but you can't counter a blob with a p4 or stug? i also mentioned lmg's and hmgs and other stuff. I don't do strat guides, no use. I could make a strat guide for every damn unit in this game but I choose not to, there's no reason and no one uses them.

Im not like you dick, i dont think i know everything, I will listen to constructive criticism but you dont have any of that, you demean people and talk down to them like they're all idiots, therefore, I cannot listen to a damn thing you say nor do I respect anything you say. Come at me like a man and not some damn kid who doesn't know how to talk to someone and maybe we can have a real convo about strategies, until then bugger off.

If you can actually prove me wrong or incorrect about something without being, well a dick about it I have no problem saying i'm wrong, but you can't, you dont know how to not be an ass-hole it seems. Everytime i see you make a post it's hostile with negative language in it and i know i'm not the only one who feels this way.

but anyway, no matter, back on topic...it's called "kiting" especially against piats and bazookas. Schrecks are another story, but stugs and p4's bounce so many piats and zooks it's ridiculous, then add in skirts and omg, its not even fair sometimes.

[Killer344]

Yes HMGs work pretty damn well against sapper blobs. Try it.

Usually PIAT blobs come with the mighty captain and lt behind them.... the hmg won´t last enough time to supress anything :p.

lol fuck off dude seriously, you are the biggest annoyance on this damn board. If you can't use stugs and p4's to combat blobs, you need to l2p.

Any kind of med-tank that isn´t an ostwind or p4 ist right now is your worst choice to counter a blob full of AT.

[Malevolence]

Blobbing manpacked AT has always countered tanks in EiR, but it's a very heavy-in strategy. Spending all that munitions on a fragile platform with little anti-infantry capability means that through law of averages you can slam a tank down in a short period of time, but with exception of rangers manpack AT units just aren't that good at keeping the infantry off of them simultaneously.

Rangers of course might need a minor increase to bazooka cost to help the downgraded skirts deal with them, though. PIATs are considered a cheap blob unit because they're mounted on a piece of shit platform that costs nothing, and the weapon itself isn't too expensive... but the soft cap limit still means you're probably only ever going to see eight units of piats in a game, and you can just shoot them with basic infantry - they still take a decent amount of pop on the field so it's not like you're going to have that much trouble gunning them down even with volksgrenadiers if you don't do something stupid.

[Mysthalin]

PIATs pretty much don't do any damage to heavy cover infantry... or garrisoned infantry.. Or infantry raping their face at  close range with STG 44s/FG42s, if you catch my drift ^^.
Admitedly, PIATs should be reversed to what they were just before 0.0.4, their AT capability is just a bit too great right now.

[AmPM]

Tym, you are fail.

A STuG will not kill an infantry blob, and if the blob is smart it won't be kited. PIATs are insane right now and skirts hardly affect them.