Pak38, the Root of All Evil

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[Mysthalin]

Good luck finding and killing a pak with a recon section. I'll even give you two of them, as that's the availability soft cap. I'll take an HMG and Pak and lol at your puny efforts to kill that wivle ATG as you're rolling on the ground, suppressed, and not even capable of detecting the pak, even with knowing EXACTLY where it is. And even if you somehow manage to uberwtfsnipe two guys of the pak, I'll bring on a volks and recrew it, anyways.

[Sach]

I think the argument 'Paks are fine because Brits blob' is weak

[Warlight]

I think the argument 'Paks are fine because Brits blob' is weak

I hope thats not what I'm Saying. 

Rather, blobs can counter many things, but should not be considered a counter because ideally a person won't be able to blob. 

[Two]

I refuse to play in the tourny if paks are still in the mod!

[Warlight]

I refuse to play in the tourny if paks are still in the mod!

Lol

Don't send shermans in to kill paks.  And then get angry when you loose the sherman.  Now That I know its you.  I knew I shoulda saved that replay.  You guys had an arty advantage on us of a Callapie and a Howie.  And you had more than enough time to burninate us to death. 

I can count at least five times I saw shermans and or m10s drving around probing the lines, and getting shot at. 

Don't blame a unit for your poor playing.

[Malevolence]

DPS on ATGs is a faulty arguement, most people do not sit a tank still in front of them.

Single shot the 57mm wins.

2nd shot the 57mm wins.

Why you would sit still for a 3rd shot of anything I have no idea, other than that both Ami and Brits have mobile tank cripplers.

Second shot the PaK gets it off faster, so it usually "wins" as the 57 doesn't get its shot off in time.

I am for doing something about the PaK, but its "at gun snipe" situation is fine as it is... just make it have less sight to start with so there's no more PaK ninja scouting for itself...

[AmPM]

I try not to let the second shot get off in the first place, no matter the gun.

Again, as allies and as axis, never had trouble with PAKs. Every allied company has a way to deal with them, and the HMG + PAK combo doesn't help.

If you can see the HMG, you can kill the HMG. If the HMG is down you get to push. A PAK on the front lines does not retreat very quickly.

[Two]

I refuse to play in the tourny if paks are still in the mod!

Lol

Don't send shermans in to kill paks.  And then get angry when you loose the sherman.  Now That I know its you.  I knew I shoulda saved that replay.  You guys had an arty advantage on us of a Callapie and a Howie.  And you had more than enough time to burninate us to death. 

I can count at least five times I saw shermans and or m10s drving around probing the lines, and getting shot at. 

Don't blame a unit for your poor playing.

lol, well if your paks hadnt killed all my AT GUNS i wouldnt have had to send my fucking shermans to go kill your armour as its the only thing i have to kill tanks. Jeez, common sense pl0x, go play some allies and lose all your at guns to that bullshit, and before you say send inf to kill the paks how would i do that when when you have mg's around them or maybe even some tanks, some axis players are retarded and clearly only play axis.

And i did take out 2 paks with 1 sherman, just for them to get remanned and magically dissappear 2m away from my sherman. I could have stayed back and done nothing, but that wasnt going to work. And trying to micro a tank from our side was lol, the pathing is horrendous on that map.

[BigDick]

DPS on ATGs is a faulty arguement, most people do not sit a tank still in front of them.

Single shot the 57mm wins.

2nd shot the 57mm wins.

Why you would sit still for a 3rd shot of anything I have no idea, other than that both Ami and Brits have mobile tank cripplers.

Second shot the PaK gets it off faster, so it usually "wins" as the 57 doesn't get its shot off in time.

I am for doing something about the PaK, but its "at gun snipe" situation is fine as it is... just make it have less sight to start with so there's no more PaK ninja scouting for itself...

no wrong start

a pak without sight is some kind of useless AT what should be still possible to snipe other AT guns?

that is totally wrong..a pak should be AT in first place and should suck against other AT guns same as an AT57mm should suck against a pak

[acker]

I try not to let the second shot get off in the first place, no matter the gun.

Again, as allies and as axis, never had trouble with PAKs. Every allied company has a way to deal with them, and the HMG + PAK combo doesn't help.

You've stated this multiple times. But could you name any of these counters?

Are they as viable as the Jeep you previously mentioned...the one the Pak has little to no chance of missing? It's not a question of "can the line be broken or not", you are one hell of a player for both factions. But how much the Pak is worth. It's worth 30 MP, 20 MU more than the vanilla 57mm. AP rounds are worth 50 MU. Cloak costs too little for what it currently is capable of. Or it needs changes.

I refuse to play in the tourny if paks are still in the mod!

That's going too far. EIR is still far better-balanced than vCOH.

[AmPM]

Acker, what I have used as an American player:

Mortar, Jeeps, Infantry, Calli, Howi, Rifles, Rangers, AB.

The thing is the PAK needs an HMG or infantry in support to keep it safe. Those things are all visible and easily countered with some form of arty or other weapons.

The Jeep simply gives you either sight, or a ballistics arc of where the PAK is so you can arty it.

Its not reusable, but you know where it is, exactly, and can hit it with the big guns.

Once its down, either make sure to force destroy it, or capture it depending on how much AT you have left. De-crewing weapons doesn't help except in the short run.

I prefer the allied mortar for its rate of fire or the howitzer. If you listen when you start shooting you can hear it moving, that's when you want to hit them. With armor.

Against a PAK Front, knock out the HMGs then rush up, setup a .30 or two with your BAR rifles or Rangers and call it a day.

I have not used Brits, but they have the same or more tools available.


And if anyone wants to say, well this counters this...no shit, thats the whole point of the game, counter their counter to your counter. Eventually one of you fails and the other wins the game.

[gamesguy2]

The inaccurate allied onmaps are not reliable enough to kill a HMG in one volley, usually not even a pak.

So what do you do if your onmap fails?  Wait another 3 minutes for the cooldown?

[AmPM]

It doesn't have to kill it, it has to make it move, if either is moving it can't shoot. If it can't shoot how will it hurt you?

Killing a unit is not always the goal of a tactic. Forcing them to move out of an area is usually just as good. Hell, if I have AT I'll leave a crippled tank to retreat since it will take longer to fix than its worth.

Its like whining that PE MHT isn't fast enough killing emplacements. It still does the job, even if its not always as quick as you want it to.

Guess what Gamesguy, risk and reward are part of the game. Sometimes you just have to gamble.

Shit, I drive around with HTs full of men, if thats not a risky playstyle I don't know what is, and it works well enough if I am smart about it.

[acker]

Finally, a list. Thank you. Though I'm not sure why "infantry" is repeated four times in succession.

The easy counter you have in mind has a cooldown of around 240 seconds, to around 180 seconds with veterancy. It also takes up 9 popcap by itself, and consistently fails to kill things in buildings. The Howitzer puts an end to things. But it's very prolonged. "Forcing it to move" occupies the Pak for all of five seconds, assuming that the barrage was somehow accurate enough to hit near it. Congrats. Try again in four minutes. And enjoy a popcap sandbag while you are at it.*

One particular method you have listed is ludicrous, especially if the player is preoccupied with a single other task. Following the shot trail across a linear path, while using noise to pseudo-triangulate its location..."Hydrophone Speakers" comes to mind.

The Jeep gives sight to the MG...that's a given. But I was unaware that the Jeep could decloak the Pak at fifty units. Shifting the Pak ten units east after one-shotting a Jeep completely nullifies the Jeep sacrifice. Unless you manage to "HS" that, too. Without the Pak ever shooting.*

All of the infantry units listed are cost-ineffective against support weapon spam.*

*And, of course, all of this is reliant on the player hearing that the Pak is there in the first place. Because the Pak is invisible at all but point-blank range. I don't think I have to elaborate on what this point entails, because every single instance you have mentioned involves the player somehow knowing that the Pak is in the area. Which borders on clairvoyance.

The Calliope is very effective against the Pak for obvious reasons. I have no experience with the Mortar, but I do see problems with bombarding empty pieces of lawn every time the Pak moves 10 units.



Can a very good player do all this? Absolutely. But should a person have to Hydrophone the Pak, then respond perfectly in order to negate the other player's literal push of the button? All for a weapons platform that costs 30 MP, 20 MU more than the 57mm, which has every single problem you mentioned here (plus more), except that it's perfectly visible?

There's something wrong here. Gambling has nothing to do with it.

[gamesguy2]

It doesn't have to kill it, it has to make it move, if either is moving it can't shoot. If it can't shoot how will it hurt you?

Killing a unit is not always the goal of a tactic. Forcing them to move out of an area is usually just as good. Hell, if I have AT I'll leave a crippled tank to retreat since it will take longer to fix than its worth.

Its like whining that PE MHT isn't fast enough killing emplacements. It still does the job, even if its not always as quick as you want it to.

Guess what Gamesguy, risk and reward are part of the game. Sometimes you just have to gamble.

Shit, I drive around with HTs full of men, if thats not a risky playstyle I don't know what is, and it works well enough if I am smart about it.

Lol I'm probably one of the "vets" with the least vet in this game.  I hardly ever care about my units dying.   So its pretty pointless to talk to me about risk and reward.

[AmPM]

Not keeping units alive has nothing to do with gambling or risking. It just means you shove them forward whether its a good plan or not.

Calculated risk is a big thing in EIR.

Acker: I listen to the fog of war anytime I am not directly controlling units. I move around listening to hear armor, infantry, and support. You can hear them deconstructing emplacements and building. Its an invaluable resource to be able to do so.

If you cannot, you are not using all the tools available to you to the fullest. They ADDED the PAK 38 noise in retail to balance the cloak. Specifically for that reason. The 57mm on the other hand, makes no sound until it fires. They both have stealth. Its just different.

[gamesguy2]

Not keeping units alive has nothing to do with gambling or risking. It just means you shove them forward whether its a good plan or not.

Calculated risk is a big thing in EIR.

Acker: I listen to the fog of war anytime I am not directly controlling units. I move around listening to hear armor, infantry, and support. You can hear them deconstructing emplacements and building. Its an invaluable resource to be able to do so.

If you cannot, you are not using all the tools available to you to the fullest. They ADDED the PAK 38 noise in retail to balance the cloak. Specifically for that reason. The 57mm on the other hand, makes no sound until it fires. They both have stealth. Its just different.

Oh comon you seriously think I don't do all these things?

The point is allies should not have to rely on a 3 minute cooldown 10 pop artillery unit specific to certain doctrines to counter an AT gun, and arty doesnt even counter it all that reliably.

[AmPM]

They don't, thats just the only counter you care to acknowledge.

Mortar, Infantry of all types, Tanks (used smartly), Light Vehicles, hell, even 57mm once its spotted.

Hell, 2-3 Halftracks should be able to finish off a PAK.

In fact, after rereading your initial points. I think that point number 2 is the one you actually care about.

If you are building an emplacement in an area you have not secured, thats your issue. Thats like Wehr complaining their bunker got killed as they built it on the front line.

If you complain that it takes more pop to counter a PAK, well guess what, it takes me a hell of a lot more pop to counter a blob than it does any other army, it costs me more pop to remove ATGs as well. I acknowledge that static fighting is death to my company. So I try to always keep moving. One of the reasons I hate narrow maps.

[DasNoob]

Owned 

[Mysthalin]

thing is, you can't really spot it all that easy, isn't it, AmPM?

Infantry of all types need to accidentaly stumble upon the pak, or you to have hydrophone speakers/headphones, as someone has mentioned. And not everyone has the luxury to buy 200 dollar headphones, and no game should punish you for that. Ever.

Charging a pak with tanks is pretty much the only thing you can do to kill it reliably, as the HMG support rapes any and all infantry a whole lot earlier than you kill the pak. Artilery isn't reliable, I've seen paks stay in the epicentre of a barrage in an open, flat field, of a DRR cali barage, and live to tell the tale with just the pistol guy dieing. And many a time the pak running out of the barrage, as well(no "we need to rest if a shell hits nearby" effect like infantry have).