Arty leads the way

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[Mysthalin]

I don't care how the halftracks failed in the game given, they don't in general.
Vampire needs some buffs, but it's great overall, at least in my opinion.

1 damaged engine, and 12 infantry kills? I'll take that for just 275 MP 135 mun and 50 fuel. 12 infantry kills is basicaly 200/6*12 = 400 manpower killed, if he killed riflemen.
If he killed tommies, that's 265/5*12 = 53*12 = 636 MP killed. Quite indeed worth it.

[EliteGrens]

Killing single guys doesn't kill mp, the player only losses any mp when the entire squad gets gibbed.

[BigDick]

as i wrote, that was one of six

the average light AT halftrack had less then 5 infantry kills

[Mysthalin]

Elite, seeing as you can't reinforce in this game, losing a portion of the squad is losing an exact partition of the squads' cost. Of course you don't have to resupply if you retreat in time, but you still lose the fighting capabilities.

[MannfredvonRitter]

ATHT used to fill an important gap in the PE's lack of AT abilities, but was considered unfair for its ability to kill tank vet, kind of ironic considering many weaponry options and abilities that also exist that kill all of a person's vet. The removal of immobilise left big, big gaps in PE's AT. It was the one ability they had, which would STOP (not hinder but stop) a tanks ability to rambo through their lines. They don't have ANY heavy AT (except the Jag) and needed this ability as a stand alone. I'm sorry but slowing a fast tank or a cromwell with flank speed causes no hindrance to the ability of the tank to get out of there and repair. It provided them with the ability to have one cheap piece of anti tank weaponry, which would stop a tank, whilst they brought up something to deal with it later on, freeing up population for them to match the enemy 'man for man' and win infantry engagements.

The PE have the easily destroyable and weak Marder (pre nerf the marder was quite a powerful and useful piece of anti tank weaponry), the british have the 17pounder, firefly, wehr have so many AT options it isn't funny, americans have the 57mm, M10, upgunned sherman, pershing, stickies and more. They just lack for decent anti tank weaponry, immobilise combined with marders was all they had, to stop the tank closing the distance and just raping their weak AT options, hell the loss of the ATHT started a circle of nerfs and caused damage to the mod in many ways (removal of the PE armour to make tank busters competitive was just one of these adjustments). Even their AT grenades depended upon the ATHT to find usefulness, engine damage on such speedy tanks just doesn't effect them enough to reliably hit them with AT nades.

They almost always run out of AT currently, in every game. They rely upon the wehrmachts overly powerful AT units to balance their own shortcomings with AT. I watched even the best players use PE here and run into the same problem, which is why you rarely see any of them use Panzer Elite anymore.

Engine damage and a few infantry kills just doesn't justify this vehicle. Allies cried because it meant supporting their tanks and because they would lose vet. ATG support kills an ATHT before it fires treadbreaker 9/10 times, the TB doesn't even have 45 range but quite a bit less than the normal range of the ATHT (similar to a mortar barrage).

Ultimately the problems of the PE started with changes to their core mechanics and abilities. The loss of this vital and important unit from its proper and intended role has caused major repercussions amidst the PE force which won't be remedied any time soon.

The problem ultimately, is before people even adjusted to the presence of this vehicle, and adjusted tactics accordingly it was nerfed and destroyed, the justification being that if it wasn't, people would lose vet on tanks. Worse than a well micro'd stickybomb and vulnerable to the very unit it's supposed to counter, hell the engine damaged tank can often move just fast enough to ensure a second shot on your craptacular vehicle. If we are going to maintain a nerf is justified on this vehicle because of its 'vet hunt' we should also nerf the list below and probably quite a few more 'vet hunting' vehicles.

You know whilst I'm at it, if PE can't have vet on vehicles, why should anyone else? Their vehicles are so light and weak that you don't bother buying vet or getting it and if they can't have it why should their opponent. As PE you accept that you will not have any vehicles with veterancy (cept panther) so as an allied player fighting PE maybe you should accept you have no vet on your tanks either . At least it creates an even playing field. Button often locks your vehicle down more than long enough to guarantee its death and with the new piat it is definately a death sentence to be buttoned for even 2-4 seconds often.

Here is a sample of weapons which have the potential to rape vet(certain units):
Satchels
AVRE
Howitzer
Calliope
Hummel
Priest
Stickybomb
Airborne + RR
Button

Even the humble grenade and especially bundle grenade have the potential.

In closing, there is a perpetual feeling that Axis are massively OP and that they need all of the buffs one can devise without going overboard. Now, whilst wehrmacht have more powerful units in general, allies always had the better abilities up the tech tree. What does this mean? It means essentially that without doctrines/offmaps and doctrinal abilities wehrmacht will be overpowered and the allies underpowered. That doesn't mean we should jump on the nerfing bandwagon against all axis forces. The truth is ultimately, that axis had one unit with potential to hunt vet and it was nerfed but allies have a wealth of options for vet hunting specialisation.

One of the complaints about PE was that the ATHT was too OP when combined with wehrmacht, this is probably why they can't stand on their own. They're analysed as a faction which is always with wehr, so when they're without it, they die.

Really, the issue of the ATHT could've been solved by an availability of 1 and a two use TB ability with a 4-5 minute cooldown. What we have now is an overpriced sticky of crapness which just oozes failure.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

what? out of nowhere, you open the TB debate again? 

the problem with TB was never its synergy with wehrmacht... or its ability to kill vet.  I mean how many vet shermans do you see anyway.   

not that it matters. ATHTs are retardedly useful at 3 pop.  Only clumsiness and PP prevent them from being spammed for focus fire.

[DemonicTruism]

PP is the only thing that stops the spam of all sorts of units that if blobbed would be a frigging joke, like AB.

It doesn't stop PIATs though

[Mysthalin]

Actualy, it wasn't about vet getting raped, it was about a little flimsy vehicle suddenly popping in at lightning speed, imobilising your tank before you could think "wtf?", let alone react fast enough to turn an ATG to counter it. 1 ATG shot isn't enough, 1 ATG + 1 tank shot isn't enough to kill it. You would need to have 2 ATGs as a bare minimum(8 pop), following your tank at it's exact paralel sides, to counter that 5(now 3) popcap unit before it could instantly rape your tank, and a mortar halftrack would set up to rape any attempted repairs. Was especialy true against brits, who did not have any viable AT at the time, so had to use cromwell/firefly starts to remain competetive. Right now the TB could possibly be OK, what with PIATs and 17 pdrs being useful, but back then it was not in line with anything.

[Smokaz]

Ah, but vet 2 rangers reducing your PE marder to 1/4 health in one volley stayed. 4 pop at guns now gun down marders with ap rounds in little over two hits. Every single vehicle in the american army is able to circle it with ease. Your paper armor halftracks turned into steel graves for your guys and lost its effectivity to take more than one single hit from any AT without having the soliders inside dismount. PG armor was removed with an increase of health opening them up to a lot of american weapons while british infantry still destroys them effortlessily for the same pop, with no force multipliers to allow their infantry to fight for equal pop. Skirts on your buttonable infantry tank now allows zooks to penetrate them from the front along with piats dropping rear shots.

British infantry in the previous patch raped PGS. PGs did not get any stronger against tommies in this patch, because they both got hp buff with weapons remaining unchanged. In the PE versus Americans matchup the only thing that changed was that now you dont need any flamers or nades in excess to rape PE infantry, your 30 cals and mortars will be sufficient to fight off anything other than the their generally useless PIV and panthers. And the nade buff helps PE the least, as their incendary nade is ineffective against normal to good skilled players even when it hits and the at nade is useful against a few select emplacements and mostly impossible to use against a guy who is watching the screen while attacking with his tank.

[CafeMilani]

if u want tym to really get annoyed, kill his vet 3 howie xD
and if u want allies really get annoed, call in 3 nebels (saved a replay - 3 nebels, 2 howies, 1 calli)

[Mysthalin]

I loved my 3 stukas 2 nebs rocket arty company back in EiR... Raped blobs and calies alike!

[Killer344]

Oh Alá what have I unleashed...lol

Axis arty is a lot easier to kill, and hardly a game winner.

My hummel has like 3x the XP of my priest.  

You can´t argue that Hummels "endurance" is a joke compared to a priest/calli :p.

pretty much yeah. I dont get killed by arty on my pe account because i'm  mobile player. Wehr is pretty stationary and kinda like the Yankees, they move station to station, hoping for the big one but sometimes they can get bogged down in one spot because of whatever reason, maybe SW spam.

I had nothing else but vehicles in that game, are you blind? I moved all my troops, at lightning speed each time I heard there was arty firing somewhere.. but since PE vehicles are extremely weak 1 lucky shot near them insta kills them.

Btw, nice score Tym, you really shined there.



That replays shows how fucked up things are, a brit player is "usually" a noob who doesn´t have any recon units, neither listens to the fog of war, they are like "Oh lol 2 PE IHTs have arrived, lets deploy this bofor in 5 secs and rape them all", it´s so stupid the fact that they don´t pay for the mistakes all the other factions do.

[BigDick]

if u want tym to really get annoyed, kill his vet 3 howie xD
and if u want allies really get annoed, call in 3 nebels (saved a replay - 3 nebels, 2 howies, 1 calli)

you mean this?



only thing to annoy these el blobbos and sim city builder (even with the fact that nebel do not much damage against emplacements...more psychological)

[EliteGrens]

I prefer this combo:

[gamesguy2]

Nah Killer vet 3 hummel has better survivability than a vet 3 priest(I have both).   Vet 3 hummel moves just as fast as the priest and has better aceleration, plus its tougher.   Vet 3 priest has the hilarious automatic rain of shells barrage where as the hummel has the "take away 60% the hp of a tank in one hit" ability.

Smokaz is right about PE though.   They are just...weaker than wehr atm.  Its not a good thing when dual wehr is just plain better than wehr/PE.

Brits are at a good place now, Ami/Brit is better than both dual Brita nd dual Ami.  So with a few minor tweaks Brits are set.  But PE needs...something.  Hard to say what. 

In vCoH PGs were balanced against everything else by making them cheaper than everything else.  Maybe just reduce the cost of PGs by 25 and G43s by 10?  Also reduce the cost of incendiary shell to like....25, cause its much worse than other grenades vs infantry.  Marder could stand to lose 20 fuel and 2 pop cost.

[sgMisten]

The big factional design for PE is mobility. But unless you're playing a map like Ardenne Valley they don't get to use their full advantage. I've seen a couple of PE back attacks using their mobility but those usually die due to a MG in a building and an ATG turning around. Maps can be quite big but map design winds up focusing the action on a small area anyway.

PE doesn't have shock weapons like burst-damage grenades, assault grenades, flamethrowers so that probably contributes as well.

Well at least the hummel is decent, cept for pricing, eh. Haven't used it yet though in EiR.

[gamesguy2]

Exactly misten, thats one of the two main problems of PE.

They are weak in the AT department, and they lack shock weapons.   Just simple flammewerfers in an IHT is a game changer for PE once they get the reinforcement package.   For the other three factions a reinforcement package supplements their companies.  For PE it can potentially change the entire company.

That replays shows how fucked up things are, a brit player is "usually" a noob who doesn´t have any recon units, neither listens to the fog of war, they are like "Oh lol 2 PE IHTs have arrived, lets deploy this bofor in 5 secs and rape them all", it´s so stupid the fact that they don´t pay for the mistakes all the other factions do.

To be honest the other factions are like this as well.

With Ami its like oh lol 2 ACs/IHT has arrived and I have no AT.  Lets just hit AP rounds on this garrisoned MG and rape them in 5 seconds.

With Wehr its like oh lol 2 M8s just flanked my invisible AT guns.  Let me just turn those two invisible AT guns and rape them from cloak.  Or even better.  Oh lol my opponent just baited by garrisoned MG with an engineer and flanked my MG with rifles with nades.   Let me just sit here and do nothing because I have 3 MGs covering each other with overlapping arcs of fire.

With Brits its like oh lol its a P4 IST and I have no AT let me just button it for a year while I call in a 17 pounder and build it in front of the P4.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Maybe we can just give PE flamethrowers as an upgrade chocie lol

[Killer344]

That replays shows how fucked up things are, a brit player is "usually" a noob who doesn´t have any recon units, neither listens to the fog of war, they are like "Oh lol 2 PE IHTs have arrived, lets deploy this bofor in 5 secs and rape them all", it´s so stupid the fact that they don´t pay for the mistakes all the other factions do.

To be honest the other factions are like this as well.

With Ami its like oh lol 2 ACs/IHT has arrived and I have no AT.  Lets just hit AP rounds on this garrisoned MG and rape them in 5 seconds.

It isn´t, and you have seen what I did to the mg inside the "Chateau" in our game yesterday, I raped it with focus fire, the LAHT ended with 40% health but I cleared the path for my IHTs.

With Wehr its like oh lol 2 M8s just flanked my invisible AT guns.  Let me just turn those two invisible AT guns and rape them from cloak.  Or even better.

Killing m8s without schrecks is extremely hard for they  dodge capability, once they got close enough to the paks, they´re dead.

Oh lol my opponent just baited by garrisoned MG with an engineer and flanked my MG with rifles with nades.   Let me just sit here and do nothing because I have 3 MGs covering each other with overlapping arcs of fire.

lol? what does this has to do with the PE?

With Brits its like oh lol its a P4 IST and I have no AT let me just button it for a year while I call in a 17 pounder and build it in front of the P4.

I agree, the p4 IST fails hard, nearly 100% of the times.

[Mysthalin]

the P4 IS needs an 8 popcap cost, and halving in price for it to be at least remotely resembling "useful".