Support Weapon Spam

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[Nanaki]

Reading through these forums, I have noticed how there is almost no discussion on Support weapon spam as a whole, while lots of attention is being placed on British support weapons. While British emplacement spam is a problem, I think the greater problem as a whole is support weapon spam from all factions, and in particular, Wehrmacht and British. In vCoH, support weapon spam does not work because you can even flank Support weapons by using regular infantry to draw fire, and say, a flamepio to take out the garrisoned MG, and at the most you just lose a few riflemen which you can reinforce for a pittance in manpower. This does not work too well in EiR because of the fact you will be taking losses, and taking too many losses can take a squad out of commission entirely, which means that, in order to flank an enemy HMG, you had to lose a rifleman squad to do it.

While Mortars do take out HMGs with no problem, you thus enter the vicious cycle of support team spam. You need HMGs to stop infantry entirely, and you need Mortars to get rid of HMG teams and other Mortars without (hopefully) taking losses. The only time you may even need regular infantry is in order to defend yourself against a suprise infantry attack, or Infantry AT to defend against things trying to flank your mainline AT.

One of the major issues, I think, is the durability of Support teams. I am not sure what is different from vanilla CoH in this regard, but I find Support teams to be awfully difficult to kill, even when you catch them with their pants down. Flanking an HMG on the field seems futile as I have seen them simply pack up and safely run to a nearby building in order to receive the 360 degree firing arc and cover bonuses. It would be one thing if they were Commando HMGs/Mortars, since they are rare (only 2 HMG teams and 2 Mortar teams available), require doctrinal power (and therefore spent PP), and are overall not as effective as their Axis counterparts.

The other major issue is the massive value placed upon regular infantry. My force can only support Eight tommie squads, two of them being recon sections (absolutly necessary against the PAK/Storm spam) and only four of the remaining six have any upgrades. Losing even a single squad is a major blow, and I imagine Wehrmacht feels the same way vs British emplacements. Maybe I will be able to field more Mainline infantry and more effectively deal with the spam once I get more advantages, but I already have the +500 manpower advantage and the +400 Munitions advantage, and I still have a difficult time.

Maybe the issue is that I need snipers but cannot field any (Recon sections do not count, since their snipe ability has pathetic range and a 4-minute reload time).

Another suggestion is to bring back reinforcements, the catch being that it takes forever for even a single man to arrive (reinforcement times in the minutes?). This is to encourage decisive battles and not just simply whittling away an enemy force with mortar and HMG potshots until you win.

[gamesguy2]

Just wait for offmaps.

Then support weapon spam hopefully won't be as prevalent.

[Nanaki]

I already have FOO on two of my Lieutenants, and I have seen it fail to even harm an HMG42 squad in a building.

[gamesguy2]

I already have FOO on two of my Lieutenants, and I have seen it fail to even harm an HMG42 squad in a building.

FOO is terrible against garrisoned units unless it manages to collapse the building.

Maybe when we get 105 offmap, commando arty, strafe/bombing run, firestorm, rocket arty, etc support weapon spam won't be as bad.

[sgMisten]

There are a few general ways to take out support weapons. They are powerful, but more or less immobile.

[1] As you mentioned, counter support weapon spam. Mortars / Snipers. Wehr and Brits right now have the advantage here because of having the longest ranged mortars.

[2] Heavy artillery. Calliope, Howitzer, 25pounder, Priest, Hummel, Nebel, Stuka etc. Some work better than others. This is the safest option at the moment, though it often ends up in artillery wars because both sides have pop cap into artillery and do not want to take the risk of sending troops to kill off opposing artillery. (harder for axis to kill off mobile artillery)

[3] Concentrated mass of mobile troops. Infantry and tanks. Unless the map is very constipated, the support weapons will be spread out, so you can possibly overwhelm them. Suppression from MGs is a big issue for regular infantry, so some artillery and tank fire may be needed to clear the way till they get cover to use grenades. Of course, this is the riskiest but most rewarding if you pull it off right.

[31stPzGren]

[2] Heavy artillery. Calliope, Howitzer, 25pounder, Priest, Hummel, Nebel, Stuka etc. Some work better than others. This is the safest option at the moment, though it often ends up in artillery wars because both sides have pop cap into artillery and do not want to take the risk of sending troops to kill off opposing artillery. (harder for axis to kill off mobile artillery)

Artillery war is the way to go. The side without the mobile artillery, will lose first. I find that PE without Hummel, or a Brit without Priest, has almost no chance of breaking in a well fortified position, or heavy support weapon garrisons and ATGs.

"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon

[Warlight]

Or

Blob, With Artillery.

[RikiRude]

We just played a game where the two pe and 1 wher player had the following out.

2 mortar HTs, 1 mortar, 4 or 5 mgs, 3 paks, and units that simply weren't really doing anything. we won, thank god i put a sniper back in my battalion.

[Nanaki]

I was in the same game, admittingly, they only lost badly (in my experiance, when I was fighting them in a heavily urbanized area) because they had not counted for me to play their game (I had one commando MG, one commando Mortar, one Recon section for spotting, one Sapper PIAT squad, and a Captain/Lieutenant). Their initial callins consisted entirely of infantry (KCH mainly) and HMGs, and because of that, my Mortar was allowed to reign supreme and kill the HMG42s off one by one.

By the time the Mortar Halftracks and Mortar units showed up, most their HMGs were already dead and the battle was lost for them.

[Groundwind]

That amount of support troops wasnt that bad. They pretty much needed them after I kicked the crap outta the other guy's first 2 callins. the second guy came in to an almost fully capped map.

You do fine by playing intelligently, I had absolutely no problem utilizing bare rifles with nades to their full advantage that game at all.

[Warlight]

I support weapon spam, I lose.  I kill alot of you guys, Allies.  But it doesn't work.  I don't know any other way to counter a brit blob.  And the Brit blob with commando smoke is almost impossible. 

So much for the Uber paks right? 

If your using tanks as allied your just playing wrong.  Nothing worse then having allied tanks show up, after I've been fighting an infantry battle and have likly had all my paks overrun.

But be calm ::Deep breaths:: thats about all teh ranting I'll don on blobbing.  But to think people complain about wher stuff. 

[.]

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[EIRRMod]

One of the good things about the OLD EiR was that they always made sure that a (higher) SKILLED  Player could beat a less skilled player, even if the less skilled player had many bonus units and vet.


No longer possible here.

How so?

Or are you just making constant 'trolling' posts.

[.]

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[Unkn0wn]

I would disagree with support spam being more prevalent, you can only get 4 MG42s AFAIK before you have to pay PPs and I personally wouldn't bother with spending PPs on them as you tend to lose at least one per game.

Get artillery/mortars/sniper and voila your problem is fixed. I find that snipers are very rare nowadays, maybe people should consider using them again.

[BigDick]

i would not consider my blitz wehr company with 3xpak38 3xmg42 1 mortar and 1 nebel as support weapon spam

(that is the highest support company i have)

but as what do you would consider one of my brit companies having 14 tommi 8 piat sappers 3 piat commandos 3 leutnant 2 captain

that is supported by only 3 emplacements (enough) and 1 firefly and a cromwell


what do you guys want? Blobs of Grenediers and Volks running around?
that will not work as axis (no fireup no riflenades aka piats no heroic charge)

[EIRRMod]

7 players have 50+ pp, and there are 3, count them, 3 vet 3 units.

Im not sure whether youve even played, vet is a lot less rare (well, the vet 3 stuff is) while the beginning restrictions are indeed there to stop griefing / spam companies.

It does work.  Some bits need tweaking.

[skyblazer]

7 players have 50+ pp, and there are 3, count them, 3 vet 3 units.

Just 3 Vet 3 units currently in EiRR out of everyone whos playing? I should train up a 2nd Vet3 commando squad than.

[Nanaki]

Get artillery/mortars/sniper and voila your problem is fixed. I find that snipers are very rare nowadays, maybe people should consider using them again.

The problem is that you need support units to counter support units. Why bother getting anything else other than Support units if they can do everything for you (minus infantry AT). Not to mention, a lot of my fustration stems out of the fact that non-RCA British has no real artillary (25 pounder is garbage, just like in retail I suppose), nor any real Sniper unit (Recon sections having pathetic range and rediculous reload time).

[sgMisten]

7 players have 50+ pp, and there are 3, count them, 3 vet 3 units.

Just 3 Vet 3 units currently in EiRR out of everyone whos playing? I should train up a 2nd Vet3 commando squad than.

I can actually vet up a tommie squad and my priest in my british company to vet 3, but I don't find the vet bonuses worth it. I don't vet my priest up to vet 3 because 4 PPs into vet 3 into something that will die for 20 second less CD isn't too appealing for me.

Well, these are my reasons for not bothering to buy vet 3 when I possibly can.