Support Weapon Spam

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[BigDick]

that can't be that he meant only 3 vet3 units in all companys (i'm sure he means 3 vet3 units in one company) because i've 2 vet3 units (just for fun i don't care about vet) by myself and i know that elitegren has a couple of vet3 units

[EliteGrens]

I got 4 Vet 3's.

[Killer344]

I have 4 hmgs, 4 paks, 1 nebel, 1 stuka, 4 ostwinds, 3 pumas, and 10 volks, most of them upgraded, so? am I spamming stuff? I don´t think so, it´s usually barely enough.

[gamesguy2]

I have 4 hmgs, 4 paks, 1 nebel, 1 stuka, 4 ostwinds, 3 pumas, and 10 volks, most of them upgraded, so? am I spamming stuff? I don´t think so, it´s usually barely enough.

Perfect example.  Most of your army is support.

Support weapons+ tanks+ volks for recrewing+ the occasional stormtrooper is all wehr does these days.

In EIR you had maybe 6-7 MGs and 3 or at most 4 paks covering against 30! riflemen.  Killer you yourself called me a pak spammer in EIR because I had 5 paks in my company.

In EIRR you have 4 MGs covering against only 12 riflemen, plus no offmaps to kill support weapons with.   Ergo support weapons are a lot more prevalent on a ratio basis then in EIR.

[sgMisten]

Spamming and balance aside, I think I'm gonna try a more mobile army for fun once EiR works properly again. HT casualty rates will make it tricky though

[MannfredvonRitter]

That's getting fixed

[sgMisten]

That's getting fixed

40% survivors still leaves the attacking force at a big disadvantage. That's 2-3 riflemen and 1-2 grenadiers, plus the loss of the HT, and probably at a non-optimal position, in range of a machine gun firing arc.

For my thinking, a fully mobile force is still screwed whether it's 0% survivors or 40% survivors if it doesn't get to where it has to be at full strength. Neways have to see.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Probably right, I didn't see the 100% survival as so bad if it was exclusively PE just because it's their 'flavour'. Fighting mobile.

[Warlight]

I have 4 hmgs, 4 paks, 1 nebel, 1 stuka, 4 ostwinds, 3 pumas, and 10 volks, most of them upgraded, so? am I spamming stuff? I don´t think so, it´s usually barely enough.

Perfect example.  Most of your army is support.

Support weapons+ tanks+ volks for recrewing+ the occasional stormtrooper is all wehr does these days.

In EIR you had maybe 6-7 MGs and 3 or at most 4 paks covering against 30! riflemen.  Killer you yourself called me a pak spammer in EIR because I had 5 paks in my company.

In EIRR you have 4 MGs covering against only 12 riflemen, plus no offmaps to kill support weapons with.   Ergo support weapons are a lot more prevalent on a ratio basis then in EIR.

Bottom line is, we're trying to counter the Blob infantry spam that all the allied do these days.  Of course, 60% of the time it dosn't work. 

The only effective counter I know of to the blob is the Skirted Stuh.  Axis artillery isn't reliable enough, Button and/or Newb-Tube (piat) counter most of the other anti-infantry vehicles we have.  And those underpowed ATGs you guys have are more then enough for out light/medium/heavy(not that you see these anymore) tanks too. 
And so much more. 

In most cases its stupid for an axis to try and get into a streight fight with his own infantry blob, because they'll either be gibbed by "Danger Close" artillery, or the allied guy will just fall back to his godly emplacments.  While more arty is called.

Tell me I'm wrong. 

[sgMisten]

I'm curious to know what the win %s are like in 003 and 004 for the different factions. Is that data available EIRRmod?

[gamesguy2]

Bottom line is, we're trying to counter the Blob infantry spam that all the allied do these days.  Of course, 60% of the time it dosn't work. 

Americans spam support weapons too, just not quite as much as wehr due to superior axis mortars.

The only effective counter I know of to the blob is the Skirted Stuh.  Axis artillery isn't reliable enough, Button and/or Newb-Tube (piat) counter most of the other anti-infantry vehicles we have.  And those underpowed ATGs you guys have are more then enough for out light/medium/heavy(not that you see these anymore) tanks too. 
And so much more. 

A kiting ostwind > Brit infantry blobs.

Also, you guys?  Whats this us vs them factional crap?  I have more axis games than I have allied games.  Play all factions so you can see it from both sides.

In most cases its stupid for an axis to try and get into a streight fight with his own infantry blob, because they'll either be gibbed by "Danger Close" artillery, or the allied guy will just fall back to his godly emplacments.  While more arty is called.

Tell me I'm wrong. 

Allied artillery(other than the calliope) is not effective vs moving infantry units.    I have a vet 3 hummel and a vet 3 priest.  The priest hardly ever hits moving infantry.   It sure rapes support spam though.   Allies get the artillery to deal with the support spam, not to deal with infantry blobs.

My hummel is for killing emplacements and Brit blobs.  At this it excels to the point that it has 3 times the xp of my priest.   So yes, you are wrong.

Why do people support spam?  Because its effective.  I support spam with wehr as well.  If all I wanted to do is win all day I would play dual wehr support spam with blitz and never anything else.  Because thats the most effective combo in the game right now.    Wehr infantry also possesses a super weapon against Brit blobs, its called assault nades.

The data EIRRMOD posted clearly shows that there are by far more wehr players compared to everyone else.  And its not just "Germans are cool" factor, otherwise there would be a ton of PE players as well.   Its because wehr is simply the faction with the most synergy, can deal with everything, and is the most powerful/well rounded faction.   I quit playing wehr because they were just so easy to win with.  PE is the weakest faction atm and its a challenge to play, so I play them the most.

[gamesguy2]

I'm curious to know what the win %s are like in 003 and 004 for the different factions. Is that data available EIRRmod?

I second this.

[salan]

im not sure how much of the 8000 games from 003 he kept track of past the wipe.  I would guess approx just under half were reported games ... of those I am SURE majority of them were axis wins, just sampling the launcher back then where axis players were 30-6  (generalization) compared to most british having more losses and americans on average being around even.

now you see more even then that for sure.  I'll see if we can rustle up some sql queries for this.

[Warlight]

A kiting ostwind > Brit infantry blobs.

Also, you guys?  Whats this us vs them factional crap?  I have more axis games than I have allied games.  Play all factions so you can see it from both sides.

As for the ostwind, it kinda works.  Generaly it'll just chase them away, thus getting you nowhere.  If you don't already have the turf advantage your still in trouble.  Its hard to kite when you need to drive them out or kill them.  Thats the same problem with SW spamming though too.  If you don't grab the land before they do your in trouble. 

As for the Factional crap, whats it matter?  This thread was most likly pointed against axis SW spam in the first place.  I play axis because I simply like them better.  Hell, I played a company with only Pio's for infantry.  Admittedly I will never play allied, beacuse I'd rather play an interestingly themed wher army, then a infantry blob + arty Allied army.  But forgive me if thats the only kind of army I see these days.  The 4 games i've one were against people who had no arty or didn't use it well.  The rest were, well as i described before. 

Theres no reason a person should have to play ALL four differant armies.  Short of Patton reading Rammels book on tank tactics, how often do generals get practice using enemy troops. 

Go ahead and tell me I'm noob for not playing Game like you think I should.  But the point is moot, because I'm changing tactics anyway. 

My point is, support weapon spamming isn't a problem in the current state.  As I far as I can tell most people agree with that.  Support weapons are simply nuetralized by artillery or other methods, so no action is required.  I probubly should have left this alone, but being bored since the games down.  Well, I apologize and am now done with this as well, since theres nothing really new or important going on here anymore anyway. 

[gamesguy2]

A kiting ostwind > Brit infantry blobs.

Also, you guys?  Whats this us vs them factional crap?  I have more axis games than I have allied games.  Play all factions so you can see it from both sides.

As for the ostwind, it kinda works.  Generaly it'll just chase them away, thus getting you nowhere.  If you don't already have the turf advantage your still in trouble.  Its hard to kite when you need to drive them out or kill them.  Thats the same problem with SW spamming though too.  If you don't grab the land before they do your in trouble. 

As for the Factional crap, whats it matter?  This thread was most likly pointed against axis SW spam in the first place.  I play axis because I simply like them better.  Hell, I played a company with only Pio's for infantry.  Admittedly I will never play allied, beacuse I'd rather play an interestingly themed wher army, then a infantry blob + arty Allied army.  But forgive me if thats the only kind of army I see these days.  The 4 games i've one were against people who had no arty or didn't use it well.  The rest were, well as i described before. 

Theres no reason a person should have to play ALL four differant armies.  Short of Patton reading Rammels book on tank tactics, how often do generals get practice using enemy troops. 

Go ahead and tell me I'm noob for not playing Game like you think I should.  But the point is moot, because I'm changing tactics anyway. 

My point is, support weapon spamming isn't a problem in the current state.  As I far as I can tell most people agree with that.  Support weapons are simply nuetralized by artillery or other methods, so no action is required.  I probubly should have left this alone, but being bored since the games down.  Well, I apologize and am now done with this as well, since theres nothing really new or important going on here anymore anyway. 

So by your logic, when Brits build emplacments they are emplacement spamming, when they build infantry they are infantry blobbing.  What else is left for them to do?  Quite the double standard you've got going there.

Its ridiculous the best strat for wehr involves spamming support weapons, volks to recrew these support weapons, and tanks.   How many grenadiers do you run in your company?  I run zero, and most good wehr players I know run very few of them if at all.

You dont think its a problem when the best strat for using a faction involves not using their basic infantry unit?

You claim you don't want to play allies because all they are is "blobs and artillery".  But no one is forcing you to blob or use artillery.   Allies have just as many support weapons as axis.   Why not use a combined arms Brits company with no arty?   Oh thats right, because wehr support spam has forced allies into a one dimensional build.    No one would be spamming arty if wehr didn't have two MGs covering every MG with a volk squad nearby ready to recrew those MGs and invisible paks pointing every direction backed up by nebels and stukas.   Mobile infantry can dodge onmap arty much better than support weapons.

Flanking is one of the major tactics in dealing with MGs and other support weapons.  But flanking fails hard when you flank a MG only to run into another MG covering the first one.  Thus people resort to artillery, and you get the games we have now. 

God I can't wait for offmaps.   The beta firestorm or a 105 barrage would just be hilarious to drop on a 2x MG 2x AT gun 1x mortar setup we often see.  And V1 says hello to emplacements.

[EIRRMod]

I'm curious to know what the win %s are like in 003 and 004 for the different factions. Is that data available EIRRmod?

No sorry - I havent even begun stat traking, the code is there - its just not being recorded.

When the reports screen (for Battle replay downloading / uploading too =p) - I'll add a whole HEAP of stat tracking.

[Schultz]

My support weapon spam : 3 mgs, 2 mortars, 2 paks, 1 nebel. Give me your hand and lets dance the happy spammer song..
It used to be 2 mgs, 2 mortars, 3 paks, no nebel.

[BigDick]

i played "only" 8 games as brit since 004...i've lost none of them

i do not want to say that im an unbeatable brit player (played much brit in 2v2 ranked and 1v1 long time ago) but i didn't even tried to give my best in this games.....

all i did was running big blobs of tommies leutnant and as many commando piats and sapper piats as possible around the map.....

this was backed up by a 17 pounder a bofor and a mortar in this company

when i'am bored  next time i will play some 3v3 as brits and build fucking London in the middle of the map

and gamesguy i use support weapons as american too (i do not spam them) that is why i cannot understand why people cry "moar rifleman"
especially the us sniper is awesome...the mortars are good enough if you micro them....
AT57mm is very nice...especially against 50% of the axis army (called PE)

you have to consider who you fight.....try to fight big british blobs without hmg support
try fight emplacementspam without mortars, stukka and pak38....

[NightRain]

When I read these new moans and posts...

I really begin to miss the old VEiR...only things broken in that mod were the doctorines that allowed so much crap and op abilities for both sides...everyone knows what doctorines I mean meh.

If someone tweaks the stats it leads to imbalacement. PIAT's used to suck now they are OP. How cool is that? If one tweaks the stats they have to tweak everything to make things balanced- or simply tweak piats back to what they were. Inaccurate pipe bombs. Who uses Infantry held weapons as primary Anti-Tank anyway? I doubt no one really.

Nowadays I just see Allies= Blob&Arty Axis= SW Blob&OP PAK

What drew me to play EiR in the first time was the fact that you could call in troops- no Sim City/London's in middle of the map. No awsome blobs of doom aka Brit Blobs massive US blobs and basebuild that allowed unlimited crap to be fielded from both sides..

Even if VEiR had US riflemen blobs and ranger blobs they were easy to counter after you L2P better.

I guess that would work if you say people L2P and adapt to new strategy? After all soon that SW Spam becomes useless when you learn to counter it not just with artillery but with something else as well...

[acker]

Nowadays I just see Allies= Blob&Arty Axis= SW Blob&OP PAK

I guess that would work if you say people L2P and adapt to new strategy? After all soon that SW Spam becomes useless when you learn to counter it not just with artillery but with something else as well...

You do know that players will gravitate toward what works, right? Currently, "Blob+Arty Spam" or "SW Blob+OP PAK", as you put it, works. Which is why it's used.

Considering that one is *nominally* the direct counter of the other, there's a reason why games, as you put it, turn so.


The question is, do you want the game to remain this way?