Reinforcement packages

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[VariantThirteen]

Taken from another thread, I wrote:

They should not exist. They degrade the uniqueness of companies, and ironically their diversity. They have highly negative effects on balancing, because armies have to be balanced to include parts of other armies. They create excuses for some factions to suck (because they can still rely on reinforcement packages) and conversely can reduce the need for allied teamwork (you can add reinforcements for the specialist troops you want). They massively increase the power difference between a new player's company and a PP whore's company, increasing the problems for a new player trying to break into EiR.

To which EiRmod replied:

The Idea VarientThirteen, (originally) was to create a secondary doctrine which you could advance up.

ATM, we have a 'dummy' package, which allows diversification - or, specialising.

However, the implementation is such that there is no real reason to choose the same reinforcement package as your own doctrine, because the benefits are too weak.

For example, the intention for an Airborne doctrine player, could cross-reinforce, or focus by choosing Airborne again (adding more Airborne into his in-reserve and in-supply).

***

I want to open the floor to discussion of the gameplay effects of the packages, as well as possible future changes, or their future.

[Schultz]

This is a great topic. I wondered myself about the necessity of reinforcements as a reason for a faction not to suck.
For example im waiting for terror reinforcements so they can supplement my PE company where they truly suck imo.

So taking them out as they are i dont think will work. We have to think on the basis that OF factions are fucked up and really need to be modified to fit Eir environment.
No matter how biased someone's opinion is like "nooo brits were perfect as they were in vcoh just blob and go!" it doesnt work this way.
Thankfully it is showed by the devs their desire to modify them and get them to work.
So first we need to just realize gameplay on two stages, then think what to propose.
I'd truly say as it is now reinforcements are a most-needed necessity. Again not so much for the original factions who are solid themselves but for the expansion ones.
Now with the implementation of brit support weps, maybe its time to rethink it somewhat, but there will be nothing that will make me buy for example IHTs for suppression - a supposed mobile "hmg" that will get nailed by atgs,infantry well ok by everything, while american rifles enjoy bar suppression supremacy.

[Mysthalin]

I personaly believe that each faction should be equaly strong and fun to play without any need to spend 30 PP.

Reinforcements should only add a certain flavor to your company, but never be mandatory to make your company work. Hoarding losses or stacking to hell before you're capable of combat should never be the case.

[Killer344]

............I really like them.

They should not exist. They degrade the uniqueness of companies, and ironically their diversity. They have highly negative effects on balancing, because armies have to be balanced to include parts of other armies. They create excuses for some factions to suck (because they can still rely on reinforcement packages) and conversely can reduce the need for allied teamwork (you can add reinforcements for the specialist troops you want). They massively increase the power difference between a new player's company and a PP whore's company, increasing the problems for a new player trying to break into EiR.

Give us examples please, I just can´t see it that way, sorry.


The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

[Schultz]

The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

Who does the caping for you killer while your acs does the killing, who holds the ground while youre getting repaired ?
Stacking doesnt count here. Play with some average teamates and see what its like.

[Two]

JERRY JERRY JERRY

[VariantThirteen]

............I really like them.

They should not exist. They degrade the uniqueness of companies, and ironically their diversity.

armies have to be balanced to include parts of other armies. They create excuses for some factions to suck (because they can still rely on reinforcement packages)

conversely can reduce the need for allied teamwork (you can add reinforcements for the specialist troops you want).

They massively increase the power difference between a new player's company and a PP whore's company, increasing the problems for a new player trying to break into EiR.

I have broken what I said up to make it clearer.

1: They degrade uniqueness because in the past there would be three types of Axis companies (you could have A and not B or C). Now there are more permutations but they are much more like each other (you can have A and B but not C, A and C but not B, B and C but not A) etcetera. --this leads on to 3/

2: I can answer the second one with a really easy quote showing how the devs use reinforcements. Akrandas said, in response to someone saying 6pndrs sucked:

One more reason to get that Armoured Company Reinforcement package then?

.
Why fix a faction when people can just buy a reinforcement package?
The same stuff got thrown around about PE, and still does. They don't work in vCoH, and they work even worse in EiR, reinforcement packages have basically been used as a bandaid fix for this.

3: It reduces the functional specialisation of doctrines too much. For example, in the past, a Defensive company was weak because it didn't have any breakthrough ability, but now it can throw stormies in. Having specific weaknesses is extremely important to force teamwork and add richer flavour to the metagame, likewise with strengths, but that's more obvious. In the past, as mentioned above, by having ONLY A, you would not have the ability to cover weaknesses with B AND C, you would have clearer strengths and weaknesses, but now you can tone both your strengths and weaknesses down with reinforcement bandaids. This is turn reduces the need for allies who have B OR C to cover your weaknesses, and all the co-ordination that goes with that.

4: The last one explains itself very clearly. New, PPless players won't have the clear advantages of these overpowered additions that allow imbalanced synergies. There are already too many things that favour PP'd companies too much, resource bonuses even moreso than this, however this only adds fuel to the fire.

[Guderian]

The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

Who does the caping for you killer while your acs does the killing, who holds the ground while youre getting repaired ?
Stacking doesnt count here. Play with some average teamates and see what its like.

I rep my ac cars so fast, i don't need protection.
But generally my ac call in is 11 pop, so i got loads of stuff to protect my precious ac cars.

[Piotrskivich]

I use them not to make what faction I am playing work but to fill in spots that faction never has. For example, I got the defense for PE so I had a stuka and paks along with my PE units, that way my company didn't have to close in as much as normal PE armies do.

It also gives lots of difference between companies.

[Guderian]

I got terror package, and honestly, all i bought was two grenadier scuads. To fill out the manpower. I just waisted 30 damn pp.

[VariantThirteen]

Killer, now that I've given some specific examples, and better explanations, can you please reply? Liking them really isn't a good argument for them doing positive things for balance and the metagame. If you could address either some or all of the issues I've done you the courtesy of explaining, it would be nice.

[Schultz]

The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

Who does the caping for you killer while your acs does the killing, who holds the ground while youre getting repaired ?
Stacking doesnt count here. Play with some average teamates and see what its like.

I rep my ac cars so fast, i don't need protection.
But generally my ac call in is 11 pop, so i got loads of stuff to protect my precious ac cars.

Yes because a good opponent will give you the time to repair. Hes gonna say "oh yeah ill let user repair, hes doing it extra fast anyway" instead of pushing through. "Then when hes ready we can just continue from where we left it".
Yeah loads of stuff, that are super effective against the combined arms of americans.

[brn4meplz]

I really love the flavour of my AB now that i have Commando's and I take the Commando mortar over the Allied one everytime. I can see how it detracts from the diversity but ti also adds uniqueness. The argument for Brits and PE before was they need reinforcements. But i think thats no longer the case. Infact the truth is that that ever being the argument at all is a sign the factions needed to be looked at. Brits now have mobile AT and HMG's. PE has got to be next on the love list because right now they barely feel like PE. I'm not saying give them Paks cause thats not the PE feel either.

I think reinforcements should stay in, sure they could use some tweaking maybe but i think that add alot more then they ever took away.

[BigDick]

The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

Who does the caping for you killer while your acs does the killing, who holds the ground while youre getting repaired ?
Stacking doesnt count here. Play with some average teamates and see what its like.

/signed for trveness

to play with a pe player is always a nightmare because it is like cat and mouse...pe is the mouse that run away into your protection zone

the wehr player need to hold the ground a need to be the spearhead for a breakthrough
pe is more like a weasel that scrounges some kills and flees and let the wehr hold the line to keep failrepairing their stuff

[Warlight]

/signed for trveness

to play with a pe player is always a nightmare because it is like cat and mouse...pe is the mouse that run away into your protection zone

the wehr player need to hold the ground a need to be the spearhead for a breakthrough
pe is more like a weasel that scrounges some kills and flees and let the wehr hold the line to keep failrepairing their stuff

I don't think this is entirly true either.  Who can hold ground these days anyway?  Between offmaps and onmap artillery, witch alies cleary have the advantage.  The fact that the wher have MG's and paks isn't by default a guarantee that they will hold ground.  It really just means they can spread out more, MG's and paks being a more stand alone thing to cover something while the wher players main units do whatever.

A PE payer can hold an area as good as anyone else, it just requires that all of his stuff be in the area he needs to hold. 
I've won games with Two PE players, wher is not requied, though it is difficult in that respct. 

But more to the topic of renforcfment packages, I do beleive that some factions need them in order to become useable. 

Tank hunter for example, have no artillery, only really good MINES.  I'm probubly going to grab scortched earth for teh hummel to give me something to break a whole an an alied defences.  So that I can move in with my infantry.  MHT are nice but they are Priority number one of allied players and they are the PE's only counter for SW spam. 

But then, don't forget about the upcoming doctrains.  Things that boost vehicle armour like the old days (German Steel or the likes?)  will diversify things again.

At this point, I don't know if we can properly analize the RP yet, they don't quite work now, but as doctrain specific advantages arrive, we might actualy see people gtting their own renforcments in order to get more of their special units. 

[Killer344]

2: I can answer the second one with a really easy quote showing how the devs use reinforcements. Akrandas said, in response to someone saying 6pndrs sucked:

One more reason to get that Armoured Company Reinforcement package then?

.
Why fix a faction when people can just buy a reinforcement package?

Well.. he shouldn´t have posted something like that, he should answer you, not me.

The same stuff got thrown around about PE, and still does. They don't work in vCoH, and they work even worse in EiR, reinforcement packages have basically been used as a bandaid fix for this.

The PE is by far the hardest faction to master atm (micro/macro intensive), there are less than 10 players that know how to fight with them, and less than 5 with good stats, but no, you don´t need "bandaids" for the PE, the only moment of the game where they could struggle (without reinforcements) would be in the first minutes against "gimmicky" starts.

3: It reduces the functional specialisation of doctrines too much. For example, in the past, a Defensive company was weak because it didn't have any breakthrough ability, but now it can throw stormies in.

Rocket arty, stukas, and officers are kinda breakthrough abilities tbh.

Having specific weaknesses is extremely important to force teamwork and add richer flavour to the metagame, likewise with strengths, but that's more obvious. In the past, as mentioned above, by having ONLY A, you would not have the ability to cover weaknesses with B AND C, you would have clearer strengths and weaknesses, but now you can tone both your strengths and weaknesses down with reinforcement bandaids. This is turn reduces the need for allies who have B OR C to cover your weaknesses, and all the co-ordination that goes with that.

The other side of the coin is that you can play on your own without the need to rely on a new player.

4: The last one explains itself very clearly. New, PPless players won't have the clear advantages of these overpowered additions that allow imbalanced synergies. There are already too many things that favour PP'd companies too much, resource bonuses even moreso than this, however this only adds fuel to the fire.

Do you really believe new players will stand a chance against the good old stackers, if they don´t have reinforcements/vets?, yeah they will last on the battlefield 5 minutes more probably.

[Killer344]

The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

Who does the caping for you killer while your acs does the killing, who holds the ground while youre getting repaired ?
Stacking doesnt count here. Play with some average teamates and see what its like.

I DO the caping with my scout cars, and if my teammate is wher he holds the ground while I repair my stuff and I also support him in the meantime, and if my teammate is PE we just cap the whole map to make them spread to pick easy targets, that´s the way it works.

[Pak75mm]

well i felt the brits best reinforcements was armored company since it replace of gave em a slew of better units.

Sherman replaced cromwell in my build since cromwells are pure garbage combared to a sherman let alone an upgunner sherman with a .50 cal. I dont care what people say but the sherman really is the best all around tank in game.

57mm replaced the 17 pounder. Before the piat buff this was essential and down right a must. Even with Piat buff i still preffer it since it adds more solid at line to counter ostwinds or acs. With the addition of 6 pounder though this goes out the door.

Quad .50 cal. It pretty much gave you a back bone to counter any mass attacks of a mobile mg. I loved it. Though the brit blob can gank any axis assault with brens back with lt and focus fire a quad was always good to have.

now everyone said it was really to cater to the player unique play style but i felt the brits really benefited more from reinforcements but with recent updates thats not even necessary. Like killer said PE really doesnt need em even when i chose mine i did it last and really the only unit of benefit was storms i use now. The P4s and Stuhs i have are still trying to figure a place in the company. Hell im still tuning the company as is trying to figure out a fine balance since i hate shrecks on PE squads.

[Guderian]

[

The PE doesn´t need reinforcements to work, I have played nearly 40 games with my luftwaffe account and I spent all the pps on advantages/doctrine/vets.
The marder could use a pop cap reduction and a FU cost increase though.

Who does the caping for you killer while your acs does the killing, who holds the ground while youre getting repaired ?
Stacking doesnt count here. Play with some average teamates and see what its like.

I rep my ac cars so fast, i don't need protection.
But generally my ac call in is 11 pop, so i got loads of stuff to protect my precious ac cars.

Yes because a good opponent will give you the time to repair. Hes gonna say "oh yeah ill let user repair, hes doing it extra fast anyway" instead of pushing through. "Then when hes ready we can just continue from where we left it".
Yeah loads of stuff, that are super effective against the combined arms of americans.

I just don't repair spontaneously,  if i repair then its after a fight. And what you mean allow to repair? i can easily respond, it does not take time from stopping the repair and get moving.

And yes, with advanced repairs, my scout cars and marders really get repaired that fast. I can't always repair of course.
I mean have you never in eir history seen stuff been repaired? for a long continuous time?

[Schultz]

Don't stack, and play without ACs. Can you do that ?
ACs should not be mandatory to playing pe. Their infantry is not to be treated as absolute or worthy only for caping. And having another 10-1 teamate is not a precondition that proves to me that PE work like the rest of factions.

Just because you found a good combo to win doesnt really mean anything in the big picture.
The thing is stats dont count shit anyway. We're here to test things. Not just stack and think we've done something worthy. It doesnt prove something rather than an ego boost.
Like 10 people sitting in the launcher for one hour waiting for bad players to join, because they dont want to play against each other.

So yeah again, start playing with random guys, try playing without ACs. Different strategies, different combos. etc.

P.S User when you get overwhelmed by a good player, repairing is the last thing you think of doing.