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Author Topic: Today and Yesterday  (Read 14802 times)
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AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2009, 02:14:23 pm »

When those with the sword kill those with the plough they must take up the plough themselves or they shall soon starve.

Which is why those with the sword have their own logistics =)

That or enslave the population. Make them work for you.

Again though, force is the only thing that stops force.
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Malevolence Offline
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Posts: 1871



« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2009, 02:50:29 pm »

AmPM that was more of an abstract philosophical statement - you can't live through taking other people's things when there are no other people to take from anymore, which means that theoretically the concept of using force to achieve goals is fundamentally flawed on a very basic level because it's basically a bluff. A very CONVINCING bluff.

When force no longer achieves the goal there will be no more use of force - this could be through use of counter force or applied logic.
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acker Offline
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Posts: 2053


« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2009, 06:42:20 pm »

People tend to forget that the reasons behind WW2 go back to how Germany and her people were treated by what became the Allied nations after WW1. I would say that the average German was fighting to bring Germany back as a country. Most of the officers fought in WW1, and everyone remembered the way they were treated. Germany was basically destroyed economically following WW1 and was stripped of its military.

Mind you, WW1 was not a war they started either.

You do know why the rest of the world hated Germany after WWI, right? Issuing a blanque cheque to Austria, indiscriminate submarine warfare, BELGUIM...yeah. A shit load of stuff that seems mundane today (well, Belguim is still considered pretty low even by today's standards), but pretty unreasonable by the standards of that time. Versailles was, indeed, a cock-up, but it isn't a complete explanation for why the Germans decided to elect Hitler.

Another part of the reason would be the extreme left and right movements within Germany, and the previous Imperial government. Both Communist and Nationalism were pretty big concerns for most European Nations by the early 1900s. By the 1920s, both of these movements were vocal enough to unbalance the moderates...the ones in charge of the Weimar Republic. Without enough support, plans to rebuild Germany (like the Dawes Plan) simply couldn't gain enough backing to really get off the ground. Hitler and his party simply continued to unbalance the centrists, and promised action against communism. The old Imperial model of government still held a lot of appeal to voting citizens...so, extreme nationalism. And the election.

None of this, of course, even begins to address the situation in Japan or Italy; Germany isn't the War. Italy's fascist model seems to indicate that Germany's choice of Hiter had less to do with Versailles than the Depression, or simple phobia.

Of course, none of this excuses the various pleasantries committed by Nazi Germany during the war.

So I think that, at the beginning, the people were fighting for what they saw as the liberation of the German people as a whole, including those of Germanic descent in other countries.

Yeah, they merely didn't listen to Hitler's speeches, didn't see the yellow stars, didn't notice the "disappearings", didn't find the book burnings, didn't regard the brain drain, didn't see the T-4 euthanization program, didn't read Mein Kampf...most of them knew perfectly well what the "liberation of the German people" meant. But, hey, that's apathy. As long as it's only happening to them...I've heard that somewhere, too. Strangely enough, it was on the subject of repression against Nazi Germans, not against Jews. Als sie mich holten, or something like that.

As for the armies of liberation, yea, because the United States, Britain, and the Soviets were all lovely people, who never took land from anyone, and never in recent history....oh wait, they did. The Brits were finally losing their world wide Empire as slave states managed to gain freedom, the Soviets had just started their expansion, and the US took an interest outside its own borders again leading us to where we are now.

...If that's all you can name, than I can top that list. But none of it has to do with Nazi Germany. It doesn't put anything into perspective. One way or another, that's still 12 million cleansed in less than six years, not counting the other atrocities. And, if Germany had won...if you are comparing the "armies of liberation" to Nazi Germany, enough said.

History is always written by the victors. But sometimes, the victors don't need to vilify their opponents. The opposition does that just fine on their own.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 06:51:56 pm by acker » Logged
31stPzGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 455


« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2009, 06:52:00 pm »

...If that's all you can name, than I can top that list. But none of it has to do with Nazi Germany. It doesn't put anything into perspective. One way or another, that's still 12 million dead in less than six years, not counting the other atrocities. And, if Germany had won...if you are comparing the "armies of liberation" to Nazi Germany, I have nothing more to say.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, history is written by those who hang heroes.

Do you honestly believe that Nazi Germany was the only atrocity on that scale in that era? Why don't you find out more about what each of these "allied" nations and liberators were doing in their own country? As well as where these ideas of scorched earth, concentration camps etc. originated from?

Lets not forget that England probably had one of the biggest slave trading empire and treated blacks as animals and property. The list goes on so long as you're willing to research and open up your horizons instead of reading politically correct history.
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acker Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2053


« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2009, 07:07:38 pm »

...If that's all you can name, than I can top that list. But none of it has to do with Nazi Germany. It doesn't put anything into perspective. One way or another, that's still 12 million dead in less than six years, not counting the other atrocities. And, if Germany had won...if you are comparing the "armies of liberation" to Nazi Germany, I have nothing more to say.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, history is written by those who hang heroes.

Do you honestly believe that Nazi Germany was the only atrocity on that scale in that era? Why don't you find out more about what each of these "allied" nations and liberators were doing in their own country? As well as where these ideas of scorched earth, concentration camps etc. originated from?

Lets not forget that England probably had one of the biggest slave trading empire and treated blacks as animals and property. The list goes on so long as you're willing to research and open up your horizons instead of reading politically correct history.

Once again: is that all you can name? I can still top that list of atrocities. And I'm not talking about WWII or Nazi Germany, either.

Do you honestly believe that any of that has anything to do with Nazi Germany? Does it have anything to do with the attempted eradication of, what, 90% of all human genotypes? Because most of us aren't Aryan, and the Japanese tried to do something awful over at the end of my parent's world. If you have anything that can justify the 12 million cleansed, much less the other dead from "lesser" causes than just say so. If you believe that the end of Nazi Germany was a bad thing, just say so.

Your attempt to blindside me is disgusting. Your attempt at a relativist wedge is even worse. In fact, I believe that your viewpoint about Nazi Germany can be summed up thus:

As mentioned earlier in this thread, history is written by those who hang heroes.

It sure as hell would explain your name.

And, of course, if we both agree that Nazi Germany was...bad, that I'm completely misinterpreting you, and that it's a good thing that Nazi Germany lost, then we see eye to eye. Even about the other atrocities committed by the Britain, Russia, France, Japan, Germany, Italy, The Vatican and, of course, The United States.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:25:08 pm by acker » Logged
brn4meplz Offline
Misinformation Officer
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2009, 09:59:48 pm »

They didn't elect Hitler, do some reading before you go off on someone else. Besides every civilization has a pockmark on it's history. The British invented concentration camps. the nazi's just made them efficient(notice I didn't say germans before anyone blows up on me) Also, the United Nations in 1948 put into being the Universal Declaration of Human rights which while just being words is essentially an oath that genocide would never happen again. In the 61 years since then there have been numerous genocides around the world. As far as force not beating force or there being such a thing as too much force. It's all incorrect. The only amount of force that is too much is one in which there is insufficient population to continue humanity. With force you can achieve most anything you desire. the problems lies in someone else mustering more force or the correct application of force, or a combination of both against you.

Forums the world over have been plaugued by useless arguments such as this since the inception of the Internet. and racial twits in every country have been doing it since it happened. everyone is just going to troll each other until someone brings a gun to a knife fight
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Akranadas Offline
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Posts: 6906


« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2009, 10:47:59 pm »

 i smash trolls for lunch
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