Nerf rangers, buff rifles?

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[gamesguy2]

as you said in vCOH a mg42 is 260MP and a rifle 270MP

in EiR a mg42 is 270MP and a rifle 200MP
in EiR you can have 4 mg42 and 14 Rifles

You are a moron.

MG42 is 3 pop, rifle is 5.  Ergo you cannot bait and flank.

[jackmccrack]

Mysthalin, I think you deserve some praise for crunching all those numbers for us. Thank you.

[Illegal_Carrot]

You are a moron.

MG42 is 3 pop, rifle is 5.  Ergo you cannot bait and flank.

In theory, yes.
But I've never seen two MGs (6 pop for 2 vs the Rifles 5 for 1) set up right next to each other, covering all possible flanks/routes of advance. At best, it's one MG covering the main route, and a squad to help defend the flanks (possibly the 5 pop Grens you used in your example). Problem is, that one lone Gren squad isn't enough to keep a flanking Rifle squad form taking out the MG quickly and easily.

Rangers are Infantry's counter to lightly garrisoned MGs.

No, no no. Using a single infantry squad (even Rangers) to take out an MG head on is a bad idea, and you shouldn't expect to win.
Now two Rangers could do it easy, but the argument was about one Ranger vs one Storm.

[gamesguy2]

In theory, yes.
But I've never seen two MGs (6 pop for 2 vs the Rifles 5 for 1) set up right next to each other, covering all possible flanks/routes of advance. At best, it's one MG covering the main route, and a squad to help defend the flanks (possibly the 5 pop Grens you used in your example). Problem is, that one lone Gren squad isn't enough to keep a flanking Rifle squad form taking out the MG quickly and easily.

I have, all the damn time.  Learn to setup your MGs if you can't cover every flank with two MGs.

In addition, how does a lone gren squad not stop a flanking rifle?  I'd love to see the logic behind this.   What exactly is the flanking rifle squad gonna do?

[Scyn]

Here we go.. give rifles satchels.. that'll do the trick.

[gamesguy2]

Here we go.. give rifles satchels.. that'll do the trick.

Attached marksman like they had in real life!

[Illegal_Carrot]

In addition, how does a lone gren squad not stop a flanking rifle?  I'd love to see the logic behind this.   What exactly is the flanking rifle squad gonna do?

Throw a nade/shoot form close range, which can easy kill all three of the MG crew quickly.

[gamesguy2]

In addition, how does a lone gren squad not stop a flanking rifle?  I'd love to see the logic behind this.   What exactly is the flanking rifle squad gonna do?

Throw a nade/shoot form close range, which can easy kill all three of the MG crew quickly.

The rifle squad will be half dead by the time it charges into close range, and by the time they kill the MG the grenadier squad will have finished them, thats assuming they don't get suppressed by the LMG first.

Then the grenadier squad will go finish off the half dead rifle squad the MG was suppressing and recrew the MG with some volks.

Congrats, you lost two rifle squads for half of a volksquad.

[NCOIC]

In response to nugnugx's post on riflemen being equal to grenadiers that was eaten by the server migration :

Short overlook over the guns :
Riflemen are armed with 5 M1 garands and 1 M1A1 Carbine.
Grenadiers have 3 K98_elites, 1 k98_leader.
the K98_elite is the only of all those weapons to feature a wind-down of 1.2s

Short range average table of stats for each weapon :


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Garand    Carbine      K98_elite        K98_leader
Damage             10          7               15                 15
Cooldown           1.65       1.4             0.56               1.5
Accuracy           0.75       0.75            0.85              0.75
Aim time           0.075       0.075         0.075             0.075

Meaning that each rifleman will fire off one round every 1.73 seconds for 10 damage at 0.75 accuracy.
The sergeant/leader will fire off a round every 1.5 seconds for 7 damage at 0.75 accuracy.
Each grenadier will fire off a round every 1.8 seconds for 15 damage at 0.85 accuracy.
The grenadier leader will fire off a round every 1.6 seconds for 15 damage at 0.75 accuracy.

The first shot is not affected by cooldown, so the grenadiers will only start benefiting from this after a while of shooting. Meaning, that in 1.9 seconds there will have been fired :

10 Carbine bullets and 2 Carbine bullets, for a grand total of 114 damage at 0.75 accuracy.
6 K98_elite bullets and 2 K98_leader bullets for a grand total of 90 damage at 0.85 accuracy and 30 damage at 0.75 accuracy.


Medium range average table of stats for each weapon :

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Garand    Carbine      K98_elite        K98_leader
Damage             10          7               15                15
Cooldown            3        1.875           0.75               2
Accuracy           0.55      0.55           0.65             0.55
Aim time             0.3         0.3             0.3              0.3

Each garand will fire every 3.3 seconds, the carbine will fire every 2.2 seconds, the grens will fire every 2.2 seconds, the leader will fire every 2.3 seconds.

In 3.6 seconds :

10 garand rounds, 2 carbine rounds, totale of 114 damage at 0.55 accuracy.
6 K98_elite shots, 2 K98_leader rounds, totale of 90 damage at 0.65 accuracy and 30 damage at 0.55 accuracy.

Im 6.9 seconds, however :

15 garand shots, 4 carbine shots, totale of 178 damage at 0.55 accuracy.
12 K98_elite shots, 3 k98_leader shots, totale of 180 damage at 0.65 accuracy and 45 damage at 0.55 accuracy.

Long range average table of stats for each weapon :

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Garand    Carbine      K98_elite        K98_leader
Damage             10          7               15                15
Cooldown           4.5        2.8             0.94              2.5
Accuracy           0.35      0.25            0.45             0.35
Aim time             0.6        0.6             0.6              0.6

Garands will fire every 5.1 seconds, carbine every 3.4 seconds.
K98_elite will fire every 2.7 seconds, K98_leader will fire every 3.1 seconds.

In 6 seconds :
10 garand shots, 2 carbine shots, totale of 100 damage at 0.35 accuracy and 14 damage at 0.25 accuracy.
9 K98_elite shots and 2 K98_leader shots, totale of 135 damage at 0.45 accuracy and 30 damage at 0.35 accuracy.

OK looking at these numbers it's obvious that a line infantry rifle unit is just totally porked. Semi Auto Garands being beat out in ROF by a bolt action rifle? I don't think so. Ya might argue the accuracy of the Kar was better but not by much. The 30-06 round (now 308 NATO) was very powerful too so damage may be a bit nerfed too. There were fast bolt actions the Enfield fielded by the Brits was very fast in trained hands. But no way can they compete with garands ROF. The game outta try and model this as much as possible within the limitations of the game engine.

BTW I'd like to say here that as a gamer I really appreciate the effort that the Dev have made in modding vCoH. The work is simply awesome and deserves lots of recognition ofthis fact. So when I weigh in with my opinions vis a vis CoH it is not ever meant or intended to be an attack on their stellar efforts with EiR. I'd like to see things made to the best standardsd possible so we can all have a friggin hoot shooting the crap outta each other!

Anyway we return you to our regularly scheduled programming

[Mgallun74]

In response to nugnugx's post on riflemen being equal to grenadiers that was eaten by the server migration :

Short overlook over the guns :
Riflemen are armed with 5 M1 garands and 1 M1A1 Carbine.
Grenadiers have 3 K98_elites, 1 k98_leader.
the K98_elite is the only of all those weapons to feature a wind-down of 1.2s

Short range average table of stats for each weapon :


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Garand    Carbine      K98_elite        K98_leader
Damage             10          7               15                 15
Cooldown           1.65       1.4             0.56               1.5
Accuracy           0.75       0.75            0.85              0.75
Aim time           0.075       0.075         0.075             0.075

Meaning that each rifleman will fire off one round every 1.73 seconds for 10 damage at 0.75 accuracy.
The sergeant/leader will fire off a round every 1.5 seconds for 7 damage at 0.75 accuracy.
Each grenadier will fire off a round every 1.8 seconds for 15 damage at 0.85 accuracy.
The grenadier leader will fire off a round every 1.6 seconds for 15 damage at 0.75 accuracy.

The first shot is not affected by cooldown, so the grenadiers will only start benefiting from this after a while of shooting. Meaning, that in 1.9 seconds there will have been fired :

10 Carbine bullets and 2 Carbine bullets, for a grand total of 114 damage at 0.75 accuracy.
6 K98_elite bullets and 2 K98_leader bullets for a grand total of 90 damage at 0.85 accuracy and 30 damage at 0.75 accuracy.


Medium range average table of stats for each weapon :

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Garand    Carbine      K98_elite        K98_leader
Damage             10          7               15                15
Cooldown            3        1.875           0.75               2
Accuracy           0.55      0.55           0.65             0.55
Aim time             0.3         0.3             0.3              0.3

Each garand will fire every 3.3 seconds, the carbine will fire every 2.2 seconds, the grens will fire every 2.2 seconds, the leader will fire every 2.3 seconds.

In 3.6 seconds :

10 garand rounds, 2 carbine rounds, totale of 114 damage at 0.55 accuracy.
6 K98_elite shots, 2 K98_leader rounds, totale of 90 damage at 0.65 accuracy and 30 damage at 0.55 accuracy.

Im 6.9 seconds, however :

15 garand shots, 4 carbine shots, totale of 178 damage at 0.55 accuracy.
12 K98_elite shots, 3 k98_leader shots, totale of 180 damage at 0.65 accuracy and 45 damage at 0.55 accuracy.

Long range average table of stats for each weapon :

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Garand    Carbine      K98_elite        K98_leader
Damage             10          7               15                15
Cooldown           4.5        2.8             0.94              2.5
Accuracy           0.35      0.25            0.45             0.35
Aim time             0.6        0.6             0.6              0.6

Garands will fire every 5.1 seconds, carbine every 3.4 seconds.
K98_elite will fire every 2.7 seconds, K98_leader will fire every 3.1 seconds.

In 6 seconds :
10 garand shots, 2 carbine shots, totale of 100 damage at 0.35 accuracy and 14 damage at 0.25 accuracy.
9 K98_elite shots and 2 K98_leader shots, totale of 135 damage at 0.45 accuracy and 30 damage at 0.35 accuracy.

OK looking at these numbers it's obvious that a line infantry rifle unit is just totally porked. Semi Auto Garands being beat out in ROF by a bolt action rifle? I don't think so. Ya might argue the accuracy of the Kar was better but not by much. The 30-06 round (now 308 NATO) was very powerful too so damage may be a bit nerfed too. There were fast bolt actions the Enfield fielded by the Brits was very fast in trained hands. But no way can they compete with garands ROF. The game outta try and model this as much as possible within the limitations of the game engine.

BTW I'd like to say here that as a gamer I really appreciate the effort that the Dev have made in modding vCoH. The work is simply awesome and deserves lots of recognition ofthis fact. So when I weigh in with my opinions vis a vis CoH it is not ever meant or intended to be an attack on their stellar efforts with EiR. I'd like to see things made to the best standardsd possible so we can all have a friggin hoot shooting the crap outta each other!

Anyway we return you to our regularly scheduled programming

woot, somebody who gets it... ROF of Garands and Carbines are sadly Relic nerfed all to shit, they knew, from realism point of view if you allowed standard Garand and Carbine equipped dudes to use the same ROF as the guns actually had they would be OP and heck, BARs with ROF correct Garand and Carbines would just own all.   Its sad, that one of the most iconic weapons of WW2 gets no love in this game... but eh, thats what relic wants... they arent Biased

[Tymathee]

Heh, I did all of this once, i forget where I posted it but yeah, k98 is a better weapon t han the garands and carbines. Its just stupid. I'd love to see a mod put in the "mad-minute" that the british used to have with the enfields when they'd fire off 15 rounds in one minute, the german's said that the britsh used to get off their fire so quickly that their fire would sound like a machine gun.

Relic could've easily balanced it by making the semi-auto rifles less accurate than the bolt-actions and been fine but nooo, they had to make it weaker and slower too, just infinitely retaraded.

[RikiRude]

But alas! The not so great MP40 we get now would be way better then it is. Tommy guns seem to be at the right level right now. Also just thing about how effect the mp44s would be too if everything was bumped up in the realism of the small arms.

[Mysthalin]

Listen guys, do not turn this into a Realism vs Balance discussion.

The point of my Tables of Stats is not to prove that the garand is being wrongly depicted, but to prove that it is an inferior weapon to the Grenadier k98 in-game, and that the rifleman unit is less powerful than the grenadier unit.
Believe it or not, there were people who said that the rifle is equal ot the grenadier, but their pearls of wisdom were destroyed by the server migration.

I managed to save one of them, however :

From CoH stats:
Riflemen - 330 health,
grenadiers - 320 health,
riflemen 48 damage, grenadiers 60, so riflemen should cost 10 mp less than grenadiers, but thye're more versatile, so they should cost the same

[nugnugx]

Listen guys, do not turn this into a Realism vs Balance discussion.

The point of my Tables of Stats is not to prove that the garand is being wrongly depicted, but to prove that it is an inferior weapon to the Grenadier k98 in-game, and that the rifleman unit is less powerful than the grenadier unit.
Believe it or not, there were people who said that the rifle is equal ot the grenadier, but their pearls of wisdom were destroyed by the server migration.

I managed to save one of them, however :

From CoH stats:
Riflemen - 330 health,
grenadiers - 320 health,
riflemen 48 damage, grenadiers 60, so riflemen should cost 10 mp less than grenadiers, but thye're more versatile, so they should cost the same

dude if ur gonna quote smth quote DIRECTLY because this is not everything i've said and it's mixed up you've taken 2 things out of 2 posts, don't do propaganda like they used to.

I don't type BS , it was all based on data.

[nugnugx]

oh wait , i forgot you multiply it my bad

[Mysthalin]

You had indeed posted that which I quoted - it's an exact quote with improved grammar.

Reload only happens every 5 shots for the KAR, every 8 for the garand, and every 15 for the carbine. In most cases, a grenadier squad will have killed a rifle squad before the need for reload kicks in. If you wish to try and overrule my tables by inserting the reload times and frequencies(which are kind of irrelevant due to the fight being over before it is needed to reload), you are welcome to writing an excell based(using formulas, not hand-written calculations) timeline of 1 minute of gunfire, giving the total ammount of shots fired from both sides at medium, short, and long ranges. It's pretty much the only thing I will accept as more accurate. Though, I'll doubt you'll do it.

Nice try overruling my damage table hoping noone would actualy click your link, but even your link(which is, by the way, outdated) says :
Cooldown - 3-2.5
Cooldown multiplier 1.5/1/0.55

In actuality, the cooldown and the reload times have been switched in-between, so it reads 3-2.5 for the reload, and 3.5-2.5 for the cooldown. I used the average number for the base.

For the kar, I claim it to be exactly what it is, as i have for all 4 of the weapons - I have not altered any stats, and I have actualy went through the trouble of fixing my post after noticing I had not incorporated the k98s wind-down.

[VariantThirteen]

OK guys, chill.

Solution.

Revert to old EiR, rebalance some T4s and the Sabotage concept, we're all happy.

[Akranadas]

Increase American Population to 30-45, leave everyone else's at 25-40

[Mysthalin]

good idea! Oh, no, wait, then the axis would whine more, sorry.

[Malevolence]

Heh, I did all of this once, i forget where I posted it but yeah, k98 is a better weapon t han the garands and carbines. Its just stupid. I'd love to see a mod put in the "mad-minute" that the british used to have with the enfields when they'd fire off 15 rounds in one minute, the german's said that the britsh used to get off their fire so quickly that their fire would sound like a machine gun.

That was in World War One. That army and its soldiers were long gone by this period of time, and while the British did try to maintain professionalism, the soldiers in 1914 were some of the most skilled bolt action riflemen in the history of the world - almost the entire british army rifle corps could fire 10-15 aimed rounds per minute, including the reloading.

After First Ypres and other such engagements that devestated the British army, that kind of rifleman disappeared. The best they could expect by 1918 was 6-8 aimed rounds per minute. WW2 never quite went back to that level of rifle professionalism, even at the beginning of the war.