[WM][PE] Flak 88

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[spinn72]

Current Price:

Flak 88 - 450 MP, 220 F, 8 pop

I'm not saying it's overpowered and all that crap.  The fact is right now we have NO offmaps, and nothing that can destroy it easily short of a Howitzer which may eventually kill the crew.  For 8 pop it's basically a Vet3 17 pounder with autorotation and snipes infantry, and with the Reinforcements mode being attack/defense as a probability on 2v2 maps a flak 88 will win a game for the enemy.  Even moreso, it costs about the same as a cromwell or sherman, and takes up less pop atm.

I'd temporarily up the population to 12 just until offmaps are in.  I've seen so many deployments of these in 2v2 attack defense games.  It

[Latios418]

I agree, well-used ones win you the game. I say that from experience both with and against it since .006. 8 pop is far too few for what it does right now.

[AmPM]

Don't play RTC....buy a mortar.

[Latios418]

Don't say to buy a mortar. That only works if your opponent is a braindead moron. You remember how I said "well-used"? Yeah, well-used means having a combination of mortars and mortar halftracks (between both teammates, because this IS a team-based mod) to counter the inferior allied mortars.

RTC also isn't the only map where 88s pwn. They work on pretty much every single map except Vengeance, which most people don't like anyways from my experience.

I get the feeling you haven't seen a well-used 88 in .006.

[EliteGren]

You can't use an 88 well, you just place it and then it starts shooting shit.

[Latios418]

Yes you can. Using an 88 well consists of getting a really good spot for it and supporting it properly, as well as keeping certain things by it. Using an 88 wrong means you waste 220fu.

[RikiRude]

and if you can't find a hedge or building to mortar from? oh yeah, one thing, axis can counter mortar pretty easy.

[EliteGren]

Placing an 88 is counted as preparation for its arrival while supporting it is a different thing also.

[TheWindCriesMary]

 If you think there is no way to counter an 88, think again. As someone who has played with and against them extensively, I can tell you this outright: if you honestly believe they are too difficult to counter without offmaps/artillery, you are woefully mistaken.

 In fact, artillery and offmaps are horrendously inneffective at taking out flak guns. Unless you can steal a nebel, you are just wasting your shots and your SP. With that in mind, the argument that the pop of flaks needs to be raised until offmaps are more readily accessible is one that is not grounded in any real logic or reason. This is because these are the worst and least effective counters to Flaks while those means which are instead actually effective are already easily accessible to all allied players.

 The true way to beat a flak is to half track rush with flames, or use a sniper, or mortar, or all at the same time. If you are failing with the same tried and true tactics all the time (omfg i tried my usual strategy 4 times and it failed, so overpowered!!!1), you are simply not being creative. Creativity is what this game is all about, and adapting to fight specific new challenges thrown at you by surprise is the mark of the best players. I should know, because those best players rape my flak whenever and wherever it appears to challenge them.

 It's a shame to see people missing out on that critical aspect, instead of seeing a great unit and going "omg overpowered" instead of appreciating the diversity that the strengths of each army can offer.

 Right now PE is an uphill battle and hard enough to play. Frankly there are quite a few things that need looking at for nerfing far before one of their few and best AT options.

 -Wind

[RikiRude]

Yes, a vehicle that get's one shotted is the answer to an 88 


The only real counter to an 88 is a sniper + support. And an MG and rifles to recrew and support once it's decrewed.

Also it's always going to be a team effort with a lot of fore thought and pre planning.

[brn4meplz]

Even when allied players have artillery it still forces their hand. You don't need artillery to decrew/kill them them. A flak 88 gets built i call on priest to decrew it, now i have 10 population i can use every 2 minutes. once that Flak is decrewed he just freed up 8 population for mobile units. which with correct use negates any advantage my Artillery gave me. I fought an 88 the other day on my AB company. i have no snipers and no mortar was going to get close on Tantevilles field. I ran AB squads up beside it(the owner had graciously built sandbags around it) and then the Flakvierling opened up but because the 88 was in the line of fire it took all the shots. Sure i suffered some heavy losses but I removed an 88. definitely worth the cost.

[Tymathee]

best way to win vs an 88 is to either ignore it cuz usually it just takes up one side of the map, or bait it with a tank or infantry in a house and destroy it with another tank and/or an at-gun. Cuz decrewing it just works if you're going to try and take it and even then it's faced the wrong way lol

[TheWindCriesMary]

Even when allied players have artillery it still forces their hand. You don't need artillery to decrew/kill them them. A flak 88 gets built i call on priest to decrew it, now i have 10 population i can use every 2 minutes. once that Flak is decrewed he just freed up 8 population for mobile units. which with correct use negates any advantage my Artillery gave me. I fought an 88 the other day on my AB company. i have no snipers and no mortar was going to get close on Tantevilles field. I ran AB squads up beside it(the owner had graciously built sandbags around it) and then the Flakvierling opened up but because the 88 was in the line of fire it took all the shots. Sure i suffered some heavy losses but I removed an 88. definitely worth the cost.

 The 88 wasn't removed in this instance, just lowered to a very low health/armour rating. And I retreated the crew off only to recrew it several moments later. I base this off of just double checking the replay (which i saved).

 You came very close to killing it though, and I was impressed at how you managed to use positioning to your advantage.
At the end of the day, though, the flak is worth 420 manpower and 200 fuel or so. The several AB squads were worth far more in terms of resources, and given that the attack ended in the flak still being operational the success of this strategy for removing them is very debatable... atleast in that instance.

-Wind

[RikiRude]

Oh i forgot about AB, run up throw two satchels and no more 88!

[Latios418]

If you think there is no way to counter an 88, think again. As someone who has played with and against them extensively, I can tell you this outright: if you honestly believe they are too difficult to counter without offmaps/artillery, you are woefully mistaken.

 In fact, artillery and offmaps are horrendously inneffective at taking out flak guns. Unless you can steal a nebel, you are just wasting your shots and your SP. With that in mind, the argument that the pop of flaks needs to be raised until offmaps are more readily accessible is one that is not grounded in any real logic or reason. This is because these are the worst and least effective counters to Flaks while those means which are instead actually effective are already easily accessible to all allied players.

 The true way to beat a flak is to half track rush with flames, or use a sniper, or mortar, or all at the same time. If you are failing with the same tried and true tactics all the time (omfg i tried my usual strategy 4 times and it failed, so overpowered!!!1), you are simply not being creative. Creativity is what this game is all about, and adapting to fight specific new challenges thrown at you by surprise is the mark of the best players. I should know, because those best players rape my flak whenever and wherever it appears to challenge them.

 It's a shame to see people missing out on that critical aspect, instead of seeing a great unit and going "omg overpowered" instead of appreciating the diversity that the strengths of each army can offer.

 Right now PE is an uphill battle and hard enough to play. Frankly there are quite a few things that need looking at for nerfing far before one of their few and best AT options.

 -Wind

All of your proposed counters involve it being 1v1 against the Flak. Even if it's there just at the start of the game (on defense), there's still another 42 pop used for mobility and to counter whatever the hell you might throw at it.

Halftrack will never work. It'll get one shot killed, leaving the flamers exposed to be quickly killed by supporting units. If they're even anywhere close, that is, because more like than not they're 80+ meters away from the flak after their HT is gone.

Sniper is going to die to the bike/schwimmwagen used to scout for the 88 to fire at max range, or even just the forces ahead of it that are spotting.

Mortar is going to die EASILY to axis Mortar/MHT. If your opponent is slow in responding then oyu might get the crew, but then 5 pop dedicated to a recrew squad isn't much.

All 3 at once won't help at all, because none of them have the same counter but all three of them will always have their counters on the field. Which means the flak and support takes out the halftrack, scouting unit/anything else kills the sniper, and mortars kill the ally mortar.

Another problem is you simply cannot ignore the Flak if you want to win. In 2v2 it'll cover the entire width of most maps, properly placed. In 3v3 it allows them to completely lock down half the width with around 20 pop (flak36, MHT, Schwimm, Luftwaffe/5man Pzgr).

Oh i forgot about AB, run up throw two satchels and no more 88!

That's what support is for... the problem is everybody gives counters for the unit alone, but not when it's supported. It's such a major unit that if it doesn't have support the team using it is pretty incompetent.

[spinn72]

the problem is the crazy amount of population next to it. You have something that will kill all armour on the field and then you may dedicate at most another 12 pop to killing tanks, leaving 30 pop to deal with infantry killing vs the allies 25-30 pop dedicated to destroying the 88.  Decrewing the 88 by mortar isn't hard, destroying it is. 

The fact is if you decrew it an MG (or flaverling) is right next to it waiting for inf to come, and most teams just build a base around an 88 anyway.

Remember it can destroy hedges in 1 shot usually, so only buildings or hard cover can kill it.  Most maps dont have that much hard cover.

[TheWindCriesMary]

All of your proposed counters involve it being 1v1 against the Flak. Even if it's there just at the start of the game (on defense), there's still another 42 pop used for mobility and to counter whatever the hell you might throw at it.

Halftrack will never work. It'll get one shot killed, leaving the flamers exposed to be quickly killed by supporting units. If they're even anywhere close, that is, because more like than not they're 80+ meters away from the flak after their HT is gone.

 Dead. Wrong.

 2-3 halftracks (and/or assorted light vehicles) with 2-3 flame engineer squads is a brilliant tactic to decrew a flak 88, even one that is well defended by mg's/flakvering. Some players I have seen even bring along a few vanilla rifle squads to recrew it once the deed is achieved. If you work together with your partner and plan this onslaught, it can effectively turn your opponents seemingly "impenetrable" defense into a living nightmare. Co-ordinate with a sniper for extra lethality.

 Now before you try and say "that would never work omfg" please consider this request. Do not mistake this proposed strategy as theory, or as conjecture. The difference between what I proposed and the reason you said it would not work is that I have actually seen it work whereas you are just assuming that it would not. One of us is speaking from experience while the other is doom crying out of despair... Unfortunately, the former is always more reliable than the latter when it comes to discussions of strategy. Instead understand that this is a tried and true strategy that I have seen used to devestating effect time and time again by very good allied players who work together well and are not afraid to get creative when they come across a new obstacle. My flak 88 can and does die in games, and i've watched even my most careful defensive position be overrun by something i could not help but watch.

 This game is about being creative and about hitting your opponenets where they least expect it with the units and strategies that they least expect. I can garuntee you, when I have one flank or area "locked" with my flak 88 and it's 1 or 2 support units, i am most likely focusing my attention elsewhere in trying to help my ally 90% of the time. That can be a strength, but a smart opponent can and often does make that a weakness to exploit.

 The difference between the players who defeat me and my flak in game, and the ones who post threads in the balance forum about how unfair it all is, is that the former succeeds where the other fails. The divide is creativity, perserverence, and a willingness to consider new levels of teamwork in the face of adversity.

 Abandon this "that will never work" nonsense, and instead start thinking about how it can and does work. You will find yourself far better served with the change in attitude.

-Wind

[TheWindCriesMary]

 On another note, in response to Spinn,  if you use the above strategy against a flak with the element of surprise you will find that "hard cover" is unneccesary.

[spinn72]

I know the flak 88 is defeatable, i've done it a few times and won the game. 

For pure balance though, if 2 even players vs 2 even players a flak 88 will almost certainly tip the balance of the game into the Axis favour to around 80/20 chance of winning.  Only because there are no offmaps and limited arty (brits only have 25 pounder, Allies only have howi at the moment).

When offmaps come in the 88 will be easy to destroy, just not now, it's much much harder to kill it.

[Hydro]

Wait a moment, this topic have theory, that alone 88 that costs 8 pop is hard to destroy, but to make this hard to destroy you need something called support.

MG+mortar+pak+sniper
3+4+4+7
Wow 26 pop including 88 that's not move

For PE
Assault grens/falls+inf ht+mht+cammo ketten+marder/at ht (if someone haven't enough pop)
4+6+4+1+6/3+8 (88)
29-26 pop to cover it from enemy trying to kill it,