Randomness of R Mode

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[Schultz]

Sometimes its not about skill as one of the things i mind about being forced to attack is that the large majority of the maps we play are screwed up/ campy maps that favor the defender.

So, you could change the modifiers to be slightly towards R mode however because its the most balanced mode by far.

Edit - Not to mention fun. R mode is fast and action packed and its a fresh approach into a system that we long have played and dare to say played enough.
A couple of more new modes could be a solution though.

[pqumsieh]

In wide maps I agree, the defender has to be a bit more spread out and loses mobility because of it. However, a lot of maps are narrow and as a result amplify the benefits already presented to the defender. A popular strategy used by players, myself included, is using 88's to block of large sections of the map. This usually ends in players avoiding the 88, and thus bottlenecking them, in a very concentrated battle. Again, this is more of a problem in narrow maps. Maybe restricting the defender from building items like 88's or howitzers early on would help elevate the early deadlock. I personally find that in order to engage an 88 I have to wait until later in the game when I can call in a few more units to successfully outflank their defenses.

Anyhow, I am about to go to bed, I'll let others engage in the discusion.

Cheers

[AmPM]

Its really not that hard to do either well....

BUY some artillery, if you do not have it, build your company with an assault platoon.

But R mode has been, and always will be about extreme callins. Why? Because if you go to an extreme the other player has to make an extreme counter to it to win.

[Scyn]

R mode is far from balanced.. just because two players met in the middle of the map doesn't make it balanced. One player(Player A) takes support weapons the other one(Player B) takes gimmicky rape machines that totally negate the idea behind the game play we want for our newer or less experienced players. Player A spends the first minute being beaten to death by his own misfortune, while Player B capitalizes on the engagement victory and creates the nice Defensive line that's already there in Attack/Defend. Player A and Player A's partner spend the rest of the match making up for lost ground. And being in the 'Attack' state.

[DasNoob]

R mode is far from balanced.. just because two players met in the middle of the map doesn't make it balanced. One player(Player A) takes support weapons the other one(Player B) takes gimmicky rape machines that totally negate the idea behind the game play we want for our newer or less experienced players. Player A spends the first minute being beaten to death by his own misfortune, while Player B capitalizes on the engagement victory and creates the nice Defensive line that's already there in Attack/Defend. Player A and Player A's partner spend the rest of the match making up for lost ground. And being in the 'Attack' state.

QFT

[stumpster]

R mode is far from balanced.. just because two players met in the middle of the map doesn't make it balanced. One player(Player A) takes support weapons the other one(Player B) takes gimmicky rape machines that totally negate the idea behind the game play we want for our newer or less experienced players. Player A spends the first minute being beaten to death by his own misfortune, while Player B capitalizes on the engagement victory and creates the nice Defensive line that's already there in Attack/Defend. Player A and Player A's partner spend the rest of the match making up for lost ground. And being in the 'Attack' state.

QFT.

R-mode is the EiR equivalent of build order poker.  Basically, the first group of units the two players call onto the field determine how the first major fight will swing.  There isn't really any knowledge about what you could possibly expect, and it really comes down to random luck.  At least in Attack/Defend this is seen a whole lot less, because the worst extreme in that case was something like a double Crocodile opening.

[Sach]

I suppose you could have a random mode and a reinforcements mode. I personally prefer attack/defend and as schultz pointed out, its only unblanced on a few maps, some maps its actually easier to attack on than defend.

I think the stats of wins/losses attacker/defender proves which maps seem most balanced.

[RikiRude]

can't people always have gimmick call ins no matter what? double croc could work for anything, same with triple stuarts or triple ACs.

[Scyn]

In Attack/Defend people can prepare for the ensuing gimmicks that may occur. But yes, they can take gimmicky things, but at least in Attack/Defend there is a preparation time to make it not so gimmicky.

[Schultz]

R mode is far from balanced.. just because two players met in the middle of the map doesn't make it balanced. One player(Player A) takes support weapons the other one(Player B) takes gimmicky rape machines that totally negate the idea behind the game play we want for our newer or less experienced players. Player A spends the first minute being beaten to death by his own misfortune, while Player B capitalizes on the engagement victory and creates the nice Defensive line that's already there in Attack/Defend. Player A and Player A's partner spend the rest of the match making up for lost ground. And being in the 'Attack' state.

QFT

Actually this is far from being true.
Most players come in with a balanced force that will include bits of everything AI and AT. To come with a gimmick at the start proves nothing about overall balance. Its a gamble to pull it off. Talking about this and bringing the example of a gimmick start is invalid.
Two players come at the same time, and start on equal ground - thats what matters.
And what are you talking about new players. Theres no other mode that capitalizes more on raping new players other than attack/defend which is again not an argument.
New players will be beaten down regardless of any modes.


Edit - And also in old eir half the players would start with gimmick call ins anyway. Really do you remember, how often you saw one/two players starting with with only armor/vehicles only to pop field repairs while the other one started with artillery support to clear the ground for his teamate to wipe everything out.

[Scyn]

Attack/Defend is just as equal a ground as R+. There's the same element of surprise without the heavy repercussions of R+. The first 10 minutes of any R+ game is spent countering, countering and more countering. While the objective in Attack/Defend is to Push effectively yet hold the line, or Defend the Line and reinforce it. It is our belief that Pushing and Pulling is a much easier adaptation for newcomers than Reinforcement mode only. before the Randomizer, the only thing played was R+... That's great.. you guys love the new mode. But a great number of players were cast out due to no one wanting to play Attack/Defend and these new players being consistently battered by the Reinforcement mode. You have to remember a great lot of our players are not pro 1v1 players and the Reinforcement mode just makes them feel like shit.

Edit - And yes we remember that. But things change.

[AmPM]

I think the reason R mode was played, was that nobody was happy with it, its just that...nobody wanted the other people to defend.

[Tymathee]

i love the random mode now that its not only reinforcements, always doing R+ mode just was no fun after a while and quite boring.

[31stPzGren]

I think randomizing was a good decision in reducing gimmick play styles but there will always be ways around the system.

For example, I've got 2 starting call ins for my battalion. Either a defensive call in, or a dual sherman / sherman & croc start to clear everything and its rather effective in R+ and attack mode.

To reduce the problems with the current gameplay, make bigger maps with objective capture popcap. That reduces the amount of territory lock down that usually happens.

The best thing right now, is to give bonuses for playing R+ mode and to give more incentives to play attacking rather than defensive. Offence and Defence is never an issue, it was always about attacking the weakest point in the defence anyway.

[Mr.Gunny]

R mode is far from balanced.. just because two players met in the middle of the map doesn't make it balanced. One player(Player A) takes support weapons the other one(Player B) takes gimmicky rape machines that totally negate the idea behind the game play we want for our newer or less experienced players. Player A spends the first minute being beaten to death by his own misfortune, while Player B capitalizes on the engagement victory and creates the nice Defensive line that's already there in Attack/Defend. Player A and Player A's partner spend the rest of the match making up for lost ground. And being in the 'Attack' state.

Yeah, this is truth. I mean shit, my core call in is basically gimmicky as you can get. 3 ACs, 1 ATHT, and 1 TB squad. If you didn't bring light armor, be prepared for everything you have to die, quite brutally... I do feel bad about this, as it is obscene in how much it can rape sometimes, other times it will be stopped by stickies, lucky AT guns shots, or bren gun buttons if I hit a british player. But I guess the point is that I feel as a PE player, I have very little ability to win a stand-up fight against Americans. Our armor support is inflexible and fragile, with marders easily circle strafed, buttoned, or ranger rushed.  Tank busters are useful only in packs of 2 or more, and can't fight allied infantry unless vetted. Hetzers suffer from the same problems as Marders, albeit with a little more resiliency. Things might be easier if I could use some of the doctrinal abilities from Tank Destroyer, but alas, none are implemented. ATHTs are decent for a quick hamstring, but suck up pop cap for literally zero use while treadbreaker is recharging. I guess I just feel that if I'm to play PE, then I should try to get ahead in the game as much as I can before I start losing ground, if it means brutally raping some oblivious person's starting call in, then so be it I guess.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out all the vetted units right now are being amassed by Wehr and American players, call this "skill" or "luck" or whatever, but PE just don't have the resilient type of units like Rangers, vetted Grenadiers, or KCH, that seem to amass absolutely ludicrous amounts of experience after a few games of ass pounding some poor sap into the ground. And annoying as the AC's are, they inevitably die because they force players to learn, and once they are caught even once, it is almost certain that 2/3 if not all of them will be destroyed. I guess I am just a little disappointed that I have to feel it necessary that without taking such a gamble I would be at a disadvantage for the rest of the game.

[Schultz]

Attack/Defend is just as equal a ground as R+. There's the same element of surprise without the heavy repercussions of R+. The first 10 minutes of any R+ game is spent countering, countering and more countering. While the objective in Attack/Defend is to Push effectively yet hold the line, or Defend the Line and reinforce it. It is our belief that Pushing and Pulling is a much easier adaptation for newcomers than Reinforcement mode only. before the Randomizer, the only thing played was R+... That's great.. you guys love the new mode. But a great number of players were cast out due to no one wanting to play Attack/Defend and these new players being consistently battered by the Reinforcement mode. You have to remember a great lot of our players are not pro 1v1 players and the Reinforcement mode just makes them feel like shit.

Edit - And yes we remember that. But things change.

Attack/defend is in no way as equal man, what are you trying to say. Especially on the majority of maps we play. Just come and attack in a narrow map against heavy support/omniscience wehr players, just to throw in also the factor of doctrine abilities. Getting access first to the map, being allowed to make defences is a BIG thing when it comes to the actual engagement.
The issues people had with things like - Its pointless to attack a stacked wall of defences without arti remain like it always has, when people considered suicide attacking against two good players with the early advantage.
So how do you think that feels for new people ?

Theres no comparison of attack/defend to R.
The fluidity and flexibility you get in R, you wont see it in the others.
And you have more oportunities to fix a bad start, while if you fail at start in attacking it may actually mean the game for many as the attackers join forces and push more and more towards your spawn.

And if youre new and attack a few times, or defend and get raped you lose all willingless to do it again. I remember new people coming fully excited to play eir, then attack/defend two experienced players(notice not good but experienced) 2 games in a row and that was it. Its like giving them to play against hardcore AI when they dont know how to move their units. You know how bad that feels for them, the disapointment in thinking omg i suck so much/this game isnt for me ?
I do feel R mode is a more easier way for them to adopt and see how things are. R 1v1 would actually rock in seeing the mod.
I know youre trying to defend the change you made but that doesnt mean what you say is valid.

As you said - The first 10 minutes of any R+ game is spent countering, countering and more countering. Thats what it should be for new people trying to see how things work. Not to give them a cliff of doom and ask them to go jump.


@ Mr.Gunny
A lot of what you say doesnt have to do with the mode you play. A lot have changed since we played only amis and wehr, and new factions/units mean different adoptation and different strategies to advance and to counter the opponent.

[Baine]

Attack/Defend is not equal with equal teams, and little skill gaps will become even wider in this mode.

But then again it's all about the maps and luck. I'd say leave it as it is. People have to learn to deal with attack/defend, although in old EIR it was not random.
People have to learn this game mode, as I'm going to assume it will play an important role in the warmap patch.

If they have a hard time learning it now, they will have the important knowledge.

[CryingWolf]

Tbh, I swear I got a curse, I like to call it the curse of the Pigeon, Bascially, if we are playing R mode, I bet you that I'm first, Now that in itself isn't a problem the problem comes with the fact I play PE. Now this, has put me at a disadvantage in my opinion. Since I'm forced to bring on a Light vechile to stand a chance of killing things, all they need is one ATG and I'm already in trouble.
Most of my starts, If I have not wiped them its because something got hit by a ATG and now to avoid losing it I have to stop attacking so hard. I have now to play smartly defenesive, which involves, capping as much as I safely can, and just hang about until the wehr player can hit the field bring a ATG, a PROPER mortar and more.
I would just swap back to Wehr, but i wanted to be different and play PE (although I proablly shouldn't of chose Luffe I really REALLY wanted to change).
I would LOVE a ATG gun so I dont have to rely on gimmicky AT, but since I got to get denfensive to do so, I'm forced to do a start that involves Tank Hunters/HT and a AI vech of my choice.

So yeah, Imo, Each mode has its inbalances' either for or against you.
This is reason why games don't end with 2 players slugging it out and then wiping each other out making it a draw. A PERFECTLY balanced game will end with like I said, It coming down to literally the LAST man and then they wiping each other out with their last shots...Which is boring :3

Edit:- Got my Pak Doc Wrong, Its Defensive that gives Pak, not Terror.

[Malevolence]

Wow, lots of decent discussion here.

The way I see it, I like the new randomized mode. However, the attacker needs either a more pronounced or DIFFERENT advantage in Attack/Defend mode. What if the attacker got extra max pop cap in addition to a slightly stronger territory modifier? If it's even at a 45-55 split, maybe make it even at a 40-60 or slightly lower for the attacker, or give them more starting pop similar to that old blitz ability from the original EiR, or automatically give them a recon run, or some other additional bonus - the map control bonus just isn't good enough currently by a small amount.

[VariantThirteen]

R+ was bad because it violated the rule that said that at least one side would be able to entrench before the battle. Because all support weapons are close to fucking useless in R+ mode, gimick starts reign supreme and pound their asses. The solution to this is to create a no man's land for the first minute and a half of the first spawn with spawn arty. Everyone gets to set up and have a fighting chance against gimick call ins.

R+ mode timings would look like:

0:00 A and C spawn, no man's land arty on.

1:45 No mans land is attackable.

1:45+Reinforcement time, B and D spawn to continue the fight.




Conveniently, this leads me to another things that I've been thinking about - reinforcement times. The war map needs to tie some scenarios to specific reinforcement patterns and timers so that the second player for one team enteres at a different time and that sort of thing. That would be sweet.