Post-wipe gameplay suggestions

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[Walkin]

Hi everyone, Carrot here.

With he wipe, we're supposed to be playtesting vanilla EiR, and coming up with suggestions to improve the game, so this is what this thread is for. However, while balance issues exist, and doctrine / reward units will prove to be a headache of their own, this thread is dedicated to general non-balance gameplay suggestions that you would like to make regarding EiR. There are plenty of abilities that need to be brought into line with eachother, gameplay features that should be tweaked or altered to better suit the environment of EiR, and other problems that could be easily solved through non-balance gameplay changes. While fair and proper balance is an important part of EiR game design, addressing the non-balance issues this mod faces is just as important in providing an enjoyable and worthwhile gaming experience, which is exactly what the team is looking to do with this most recent wipe. Use this thread to post any non-balance suggestions you have for dev team to check out.

Suggestion: Standardize and streamline cloak abilities and ambush bonuses.

Currently, there are an absurd amount cloak / ambush abilities, and it hurts gameplay. They're non-standardized, unintuitive, and often times downright gimmicky. Some units' cloak abilities might work the complete opposite of another units' cloak. Snipers and Stormtroopers can instantly turn invisible and walk across an open field. Commandos can pop smoke and turn invisible, and will remain invisible for some time even if they leave their smoke cover and walk directly into your units. Sappers (which have no real need for or reason to have an ambush ability) can cloak in cover and receive ridiculous ambush bonuses. The list goes on. What makes it worse is that none of these abilities or bonuses are explained or documented anywhere.

To this, I would suggest cataloging every cloaking ability / ambush bonus in the game, and and unifying them in some sort of standardized system by 1) Removing cloak abilities from units that should not have them (again, Sappers come to mind. I understand that it was necessary for them to have cloak for gameplay purposes back in vCoH, but in EiR it makes no sense for an anti-tank support / engineer squad like Sappers to get cloak with ambush bonuses). 2) Remove the gimmicky, bullshit, anti-fun forms of cloak currently in the game (i.e. Commandos', Snipers', and Sotrmtroopers' ability to turn invisible and walk across open ground). Nobody actually likes these kinds of cloak anyways. They're not interesting to play with, and they're no not very fun to play against. They contribute nothing positive to the game. 3) Standardize the cloak ability across units by altering all current cloak abilities to function similar to FJ cloak (ie a unit must be holding still and in cover for the bonus to come into effect. 4) Unify ambush bonuses across all units. I would suggest something around x1.25 Accuracy, x1.25 Penetration, and x1.25 Suppression for the first 1-3 seconds of combat. (currently, the PaK's x10 Penetration or PIAT's +50% Damage multipliers are way out of line).

Standardizing cloak and unifying ambush bonuses like this would reduce the amount of gimmicky nonsense players have to deal with, encourage good use of cloak abilities while reducing some of the absurd and unfair bonuses they provide, and improve gamefeel and flow of gameplay, while providing for more intuitive gameplay and even a more immersive gameplay experience.

[Walkin]

Suggestion: Increase projectile speed for certain weapons, and reduce scatter.

This is a relatively small one, but one that's been bugging me for the longest time. Currently, certain rocket weapons (like the Bazooka and Panzerschrek) and large caliber shells (like the StuH's 105mm) travel at an absurdly slow speed. It seriously looks like the StuH's shell travel at like 40mph, and it even seriously hurts gameplay when infantry are able to simply walk away from a HE barrage before the first shell has even landed.

I would suggest increasing these weapons travel speed to more realistic and intuitive levels, similar to that in CoH2 (think of CoH2's Panzerschrek increased travel speed, or CoH2's StuG E's slow-but-not-too-slow shell velocity).

Also, some weapons' scatter angles are excessively high, and should be lowered. Not to the point where even calculated misses regularly turn into hits (like with RRs), but watching an AT gun's shot fly off 60 degrees perpendicular to what its firing at is just downright dumb. Even calculated misses should land somewhere near the target.

[Walkin]

Suggestion: Remove the 'Destroyed Engine' and 'Immobilized' vehicle critical from the game.

I shouldn't really even have to explain this one. Damaged Engine crits are just fine, but Destroyed Engine and Immobilized crits have absolutely no business in EiR, they don't mesh well with EiR's gameplay, and they contribute nothing positive to the game. I haven't seen an Immobilized crit in ages, so maybe it was removed some time ago, but Destroyed Engine crits need to go, too.

OK that's it for now, more later.

[aeroblade56]

Suggestion: Remove the 'Destroyed Engine' and 'Immobilized' vehicle critical from the game.

I shouldn't really even have to explain this one. Damaged Engine crits are just fine, but Destroyed Engine and Immobilized crits have absolutely no business in EiR, they don't mesh well with EiR's gameplay, and they contribute nothing positive to the game. I haven't seen an Immobilized crit in ages, so maybe it was removed some time ago, but Destroyed Engine crits need to go, too.

OK that's it for now, more later.

A very well posted thought, but a rather silly post.


1. piat does not get 50% damage on ambush.
2. the standardized cloak has been nerfed in varous ways. (storms for instance can not purchase 2x schreks and  cloak.)  Falls again cloak in cover OR can cloak on the move like storms But they crawl instead of walk making it far more time consuming to cloak.
3. Piat ambush is there because if you knew anything about the piat stats it does not roll a hit. it also has really really low penetration vs pretty much everything other than that of a ostwind. Its got a slow travel time so the idea is to ambush and help negate that long travel time.

Commando Cloak is almost purely for breaking suppression. its also on a nice cooldown, picture this if you will. A ranger squad for the same price can get Fireup allowing you to break suppression and either engage or run away from trouble.

Commando Smoke, only breaks suppression.  yes you can either attack with it or you can run away but you have to make up your mind. it isnt a get out of jail free card like people think it is. U can still push them with a bike out of their smoke, you can also chase them through the smoke.


As for the damaged engine critical. it isnt something new and it isnt something that one faction gets than the other. that is why with the armor doctrine you can still get the ability to shoot and repair whilst having a damage engine. Hell i remember people would get stickied and pop blitzkrieg and run just far enough away on a damaged engine.

Tell me if we got rid of engine damage what would be the purpose of mines?. or stickies that rely heavily on damaging a engine.

Increase projectile speed for realism?!?!?!. thats lame, this isnt a realism mod and i think that has been very clear for a long time now.(Have u seen oak kch?).

Change scatter angles to make it so things can scatter and hit random garbage?. Yes, please lets change the scatter angles because we really need more rogue zooks scattering into snipers or calliopes killing entire factions with a single blow.

Im not trying to be rude.

[Walkin]

1. piat does not get 50% damage on ambush.
3. Piat ambush is there because if you knew anything about the piat stats it does not roll a hit. it also has really really low penetration vs pretty much everything other than that of a ostwind. Its got a slow travel time so the idea is to ambush and help negate that long travel time.

PIAT Ambush gives +50% Damage in vCoH, no idea what it is in EiR. <-- Do you see how the lack of transparency and documentation makes it difficult to understand or even be able to discuss such matters? Unifying and standardizing Cloak abilities and Ambush bonuses would solve this problem.

But yes, I know how PIATs work. They already deal an absurdly high amount of damage vs Axis tanks, they regularly get rear armor hits because of their flight pattern, and they're only half-affected by Skirts. PIATs own. They don't need ambush bonuses too. I'm actually fine with Commando PIATs getting Ambush, because Commandos are all about being sneaky and stuff, but regular Sappers have no reason for getting Cloak.

2. the standardized cloak has been nerfed in varous ways...

Commando Smoke,...

Note that I never said that any form of Cloak was overpowered or imbalanced, just that it's really fucking stupid and unfun. A horde of 20 soldiers charging across a field should not be able to magically disappear into thin air, for no reason, and continue to walk across that field unseen. It's dumb. A Sniper should not be able to sit under your nose, with their absurdly small reveal radius, and completely avoid detection and enemy fire while still moving through the open because he's Magically Invisible. It's dumb.

I'm fine with Commando Smoke breaking suppression and providing smoke cover; that's cool, and actually a really interesting, skillful ability. What I'm not fine with is those same Commandos being able to charge out of the smoke across an open field, still invisible, and able to plant demo charges and throw grenades, still invisible, despite being out in the open. It's dumb. It's not just a matter it being unrealistic, that I can handle. It's that Cloak is very stupid and unfun game design, and it really hurts gameplay to have it in the game as it is. Just because 'That's The Way Things Have Always Been' is no excuse for keeping shitty game design around, especially when there's already demonstrably better ways to represent the concepts of soldiers concealing themselves with camouflage and waiting in ambush.

As for the damaged engine critical. it isnt something new and it isnt something that one faction gets than the other. that is why with the armor doctrine you can still get the ability to shoot and repair whilst having a damage engine. Hell i remember people would get stickied and pop blitzkrieg and run just far enough away on a damaged engine.

Tell me if we got rid of engine damage what would be the purpose of mines?. or stickies that rely heavily on damaging a engine.

Re-read my post: notice I said remove Destroyed Engine and Immobilized crits, but keep Damaged Engine.

[Hicks58]

PIAT's do keep their vCoH ambush bonuses btw Aero.

Or at least, they do still have a significant damage bonus. I'm on a new rig and haven't got around to reinstalling Corsix yet (I imagine getting that old shitfucker working is gonna be fun)

Also, PIAT's are more than capable of hitting shit if you know how to use attack ground or how to position well.

Cloak's always been a funny shitbag to play with, and to a degree, is somewhat necessary in CoH/EiRR, due to it not having a proper LoS system like CoH2 does. You can't duck behind buildings or hedges to break full visual LoS in CoH 1.

The ONLY unit that should be packing mobile cloak is the Sniper IMO, Storms already fill a role by being heavy assault inf which can reliably shrug off anything less than a heavy tank shot to the face which it can go heal back up from. That +15 hp is a lot more significant than people give it credit for, and being able to get MP44's on a heavy duty unit is nice.

[GrayWolf]

Finally someone who uses the ground target ability on piats. <3


I do agree on the cloak argument. Personally I would add saboteur unit with demos etc for SE. I would be simillar to radioman, but without radio and explosives instead. "

[XIIcorps]

Finally someone who uses the ground target ability on piats. <3


I do agree on the cloak argument. Personally I would add saboteur unit with demos etc for SE. I would be simillar to radioman, but without radio and explosives instead. "

that still hardly makes them viable, because they were designed to be used with button. It just makes them 0.01% shit

[Walkin]

that still hardly makes them viable, because they were designed to be used with button. It just makes them 0.01% shit

Dude what are you talking about? PIATs are probably the best handheld AT weapon in the game.

At just 60Mu each, they cost the same as zooks but are way more effective. At literally literally half the price of a Panzerschrek, you get a weapon with better damage, better penetration, the capability to fire over and even through shot blockers, the ability to reliably damage infantry (something a Schrek or Zook could never do), and that's not to mention the fact that Sappers are, in and of themselves, a pretty awesome unit.

edit: Plus the fact that their penetration is completely unaffected by Side Skirts

edit 2, since PIATs are just so awesome: Plus the fact that, due to their flight trajectory, they often score Rear Armor Hits even when fired at a tank's front armor.

edit 3: Button was an absolute bullshit ability, and EiR is so much better off with it gone. But if you're looking for an ability to stun an enemy vehicle, why not the AT Rifle's Stun Crew ability?

[Tachibana]

When button was around, PIATs were definitely in contention for best HHAT in the mod. Without it though, they are well behind both the shreck and Recoilless Rifle. I do not think that they are as useless as XII is making out, however, they are not as crazy good as you are making them out to be. Lemme break down your points.

1.) The cost vs shreck: 1 piat costs 60, sure, but you have to buy them in 120 muni sets. That is the same cost as a basic shreck.

2.) The damage: A shreck that hits the target will deal 150 dmg(25% splash dmg), if BOTH PIATs hit, they will deal 180. So, there is a lot of random in the damage the PIAT will do. However, PIATs(like zooks) have some great damage modifiers vs a lot of axis armour, so it evens out.

3.) PIATs having better pen than Shrecks: Lets break it down into common targets
Shreck pen vs
Cromwell: 260%
Sherman: 87%
Jumbo: 39%
Pershing: 45%
m10: 226%

Piat pen vs(l/s)
Stug skirts: 25%/50%
P4 skirts: 33.7%/67.4%
Panther skirts: 11.2%/22.4%
Tiger: 18.5%/37%
KT: 14.8%/ 29.6%

4.) Fire over and through shot blocks. True, shreck cannot, but, it is at the offset of being fairly poor vs lvs/faster tanks

5.) Reliably damage infantry, vs basic inf armour:
acc: 5%/3.25%/1.5%
dmg: 22.5 damage with a .2 splash distance with reduced splash accuraccy.

So, I think you may be over selling the Anti-inf capability of PIATs.

6.) Skirts do not effect PIATs: NOT true. Skirts both reduce Damage and Pen done by PIATs.\


So, basically, PIATs are a niche HHAT piece which have great damage potential, but are hampered by how often thye actually hit and their penetration rates. Lemme put if like this, If you had the THE CHOICE. Would you rather pay 120 muni for a shreck on your sappers or 120 for the PIATs? Personally, I would take the reliability of the Shreck.

Due to how much pure damage potential the PIAT has, I don't think there is too much that needs to be changed on the weapon itself. The cost could be looked at however.

[XIIcorps]

Piats are literally designed around button+piat+slit trench.

The thing is that if any other HHAT weapon rolls a hit, it fucking hits. We've all seen this projectiles do 90* turns to damage a unit its rolled a hit for.

While I may be underselling piats, plain and simple they suck unless you're playing bastion

[Shabtajus]

my suggestion is an epic one. I am more than sure it will bring eirr back to golden age and will pack up full launcher of happy players to be honest.

First of all you need bring back assymetric warfare for AB and dat old smoke screen covered landing AB they used to have back in the days.

Bring back MAUS aww yeaa

Fjs sniper should get back dat sniper sprint and SC should get dat insta pinn stuff like they used to have in the past.

As for USA is should have arty  feel like SP should get back all those vet bonuses

As for wehr, 88s must have 105 shells and officer's should get back dat aura stackig again

[aeroblade56]

Hotchkiss so good! Vet3 in one game

yeah pretty easy to get with chugga against you.

[Tachibana]

Probably more due to the lack of zooks in the current meta. Boys at dont have quite the damage output and PIATs usually miss a moving hotch.

[Hicks58]

Paired Hotch have always been a bastard to handle unless you prep in advance or luckily bring the right coy for the job.

ATG's do a solid number on them, but it's just rolling the hits. Also, if they user is scouting well, they'll usually just side-step ATG's anyhow.

I do have to agree, Zooks are pretty much their bane, and RR's give them pause.

[chuggachar]

M10's seemed like a decent enough counter to them anyway

[Hicks58]

They are, 1 v 1. The problem is that Hotch like to roam in pairs, and a pair of upgunned will happily shit on an M10, and go back to what it was doing.

A 20 or so fuel increase on both variants might be in order, but they can be handled assuming the right equipment is brought (Just like most everything else).

[TheVolskinator]

The problem being that the US has no non-doc HHAT, and stickies only work if the Hotch-user is an utter moron and YOLOs into a vet rifle squad.