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[gamesguy2]

I have 6 and I wouldn't trade them for RRs, piats, or bazookas.

1. I can't afford the manpower to use less efficient AT.  Dual shrek squads are the most powerful per pop infantry AT in the game.

2. Piats can't hit moving vehicles, RRs can't hit light vehicles(phase through), and zooks are just shit vs any kind of armor with really bad penetration.

So no, I wouldn't trade shreks for any other infantry AT.

[Jazlizard]

Actually I find zookas do pretty good vs P4s and light vehicles, not really sure about other vehicles.

Anyways, that isn't what this thread is about, I have 4.

[Illegal_Carrot]

yeah Illegal.. but in order to purchase 4 zooks you also have to spend 600mp. 600mp and 160mu for 4 zooks. but you can't just get zooks by themselves because you need thompsons to make rangers worth it because 6pop worth of rangers with rifles wont do anything against any sort of infantry. And lets face it, bazookas are not a solution to armor, and they can barely deter light vehicles. So overall.. the shreck still is more valuable.

Yes, but for that 600MP/440MU for two Rangers + Thompsons (which is great against both inf and vehicles) I spend 480MP/500MU on two Grens with and equal number of Schrecks, or 600MP/600MU on two Storms, and neither of which have AI capabilities.

And Idk why people think grens aren´t survivable, they can take a beating and are a lot more easier to micro than ABS/Rangers, with schrecks you can usually shoot and get away before they hit you, with ABS/Rangers you need to get a bit closer to make sure that the 2 retards who are left behind with the AT weapons are in range to fire, which means that the p4 will hit them, and usually hard, and guess what, if it has skirts, gl trying to penetrate it.

Zooks/Schrecks/RRs have similar ranges/accuracy, so anything you have to risk with Zooks/RR, you also have to risk with Schrecks. However, with their low scatter angle, RRs are likely to hit at even long range. On top of that, Rangers/AB have more men, more health, and better armor than even Storms. Plus Fire Up to either get close or get away, as AmPM mentioned.
Skirts don't even effect PIATs, and RRs penetrate a large majority of the time--even against units with skirts.
Factor in the Sherman's large blast radius compared to the P4's, and Grens/Stroms are much more vulnerable than even Sappers.

I don't think he realises that a bazooka has less than a 45% chance to penetrate Any piece of Wehrmacht armor besides the Ostwind, and a less than 50% chance to penetrate any piece of Panzer Elite armor.

The Zook's low penetration is the only thing it has going against it, and there's no way that that alone warrants being 1/4th the cost of a Schreck. Neither PIATs or RRs have any drawbacks.

Oh and the Bazooka only does 75 base dmg.

Key word is 'base.' The 'Zook has a 1.6 damage modifier against the P4. 75 x 1.6 = 120. The Zook does the same damage to a P4 that a Schreck does against a Sherman. The Zook also has a 1.5 modifier against Panthers and Tigers. It even has noticeable modifiers against tanks with Skirts. Same with PIATs except 90 x 1.6 = 144.
On a similar note, both Zooks and PIATs get large accuracy bonus again several Axis tanks, which means that they can be even more accurate than Schrecks.

PIATs can out-damage Schrecks, are completely unaffected by Skirts, often get rear armor hits, can be more accurate than Schrecks, and are only one-third the cost. Plus they fire over/through shit.
RRs deal similar damage to Schrecks (but take into account their high accuracy, the can easily out-DPS), penetrate a large majority of the time (100% if the vehicle doesn't have skirts), are always more accurate due to their low scatter angle, and are roughly half the cost.
'Zooks can deal equal or similar damage, can be more accurate, and are only one-fourth the cost. The only drawback is low penetration, which is more than made up for.

[Killer344]

I won´t even bother to waste more time here tbh.

[Latios418]

Two bazookas if they penetrate do 150 dmg..  now mind you the thing they penetrate most is an Ostwind at 79% chance. Now a Shreck has a 89% chance to penetrate a Sherman. We'll say it this way just for the sake of.. I'm pretty much always right...

MODIFIERS

THEY DON'T EXIST

oh wait

Ostwind vs Ranger - Ostwind has a 75% chance to hit. Now as I already stated, Rangers without Thompsons are worthless. Ostwind, if it kills 1 guy from a range squad that's okay. Bazookas will transfer from the 6 man to 5 man squad. Now whoever the ostwind kills from then on is dead and so is the weapon efficiency, especially if it happens to be a bazooka guy. Now in the time it takes to reload from a bazooka, and lets say for the hell of it the rangers get the first shots off. And both Penetrate Great.. that's 150 dmg done to the ostwind. Only 250 more to go.

Now Taking into account all of the above. The Ostwind will fire approximately 7 shots before before the next volley of bazookas fires. Lets say they hit again... Hooray! another 150 dmg. only 100 more to go. During the time that the volley was fireThe ostwind has let off another  3 shots and is reloading for it's 4 seconds. Bazookas reload in 8s btw. So the Ostwind gets to reload and fires another 4 shots.. But oh.. fuck! a zook guy died during the previous 10 shots So this time do to chance the rangers fired again and omfg.. how lucky are we.. it penetrated again! only 25 more dmg to go! But now the ostwind has let off another 6 shots and has effectively killed the ranger squad.. boo hoo. Sad

Also.. none of this scenario took into account the huge god damn scatter bazookas have.

WHY THE FUCK DID YOU CHOOSE AN OSTWIND FOR THE RANGERS TO FACE

OSTWIND IS GOING TO FUCKING PWN ANY INFANTRY THAT SITS THERE AND TRIES TO KILL IT, EVEN ONES WITH PICKED UP SHRECKS.

On top of this, why are rangers without thompsons useless whereas grens w/ shrecks but not LMGs are useful? You're trying to add to the fucking cost of the Rangers to make the shreck vs bazooka look fair, when the thing you'tre adding to the cost is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO ANTI-TANK.

Illegal carrot has pretty much summed it up. 2 Bazookas is greatly superior in damage and accuracy to one shreck, while being slightly inferior in penetration. This might be ok if the platform wasn't significantly better and 2 bazookas weren't 66% of the cost of a shreck.

Disclaimer: Any and all caps/swearing are just to get a point across. I'm not actually angry so stfu.

[DasNoob]

It's getting a little thick in here.  Keep it civil everyone.   

[jackmccrack]

When I ran PE I took anywhere between 4-6 Tankbuster Squads.

So my answer is 6 shrecks.

[Illegal_Carrot]

I won´t even bother to waste more time here tbh.

I hope the size of my post didn't scare you off, it was merely to make a point.

If you can refute this-

PIATs can out-damage Schrecks, are completely unaffected by Skirts, often get rear armor hits, can be more accurate than Schrecks, and are only one-third the cost. Plus they fire over/through shit.
RRs deal similar damage to Schrecks (but take into account their high accuracy, the can easily out-DPS), penetrate a large majority of the time (100% if the vehicle doesn't have skirts), are always more accurate due to their low scatter angle, and are roughly half the cost.
'Zooks can deal equal or similar damage, can be more accurate, and are only one-fourth the cost. The only drawback is low penetration, which is more than made up for.

-than I'd love to your argument; don't just say "I'm not gonna bother" and storm out.
I don't see how you would though (that's why I want to hear your argument!), because not only have I verified everything I've said with CoH-stats, but I've also had lots of experience with all the forms of AT I mentioned both pre- and post- v.6

[Malevolence]

I have many schreks in my bangbus.

[Scyn]

The vast majority of Axis tanks come with Skirts. RR's dmg vs skirts is reduced by 25% as well as their penetration, anywhere from 25-45% reduced. they do 62.5 base dmg. So they do 125dmg in comparison to a Shreck's 120. A shreck has no negative penalty except a 7% accuracy reduction vs M10's and Cromwells.

Piats have Increased Accuracy and Damage vs Most axis tanks. So yes, they are definitely worth the price when you consider Ambush and Pass_through objects ability.

[wildsolus]

don't get why so many people are bringing up RR's....hardly anybody is airborne this war!

[CommanderHolt]

For my PE company, I use 6 Panzershrecks.

@ Illegal Carrot- I can't refute on whats make PIATs great over the Panzershrecks, but it not like PIATs also have their own weakness in which that Panzershrecks will shine.

-Panzershrecks have a better chance at hitting Vehicles (especially moving Light vehicles)
-Panzershrecks have better Range distance.
(Panzershreck- L-35,M-20,S-12; PIAT- L-35,M-12,S-8)
-Sappers aren't that sturdy compared to Grenadiers
-Can purchase a 2nd Panzershreck

[sgMisten]

Hi. Before I retired from EiRR I did up this spreadsheet. Don't know if any of the core values have been changed since but the new skirts have been taken into account. Factoring in penetration and accuracy versus the Pz4, bazooka and panzershreck have similar damage/munitions ratio [looking at cost, not number of AT guns].

I think Piats cost more now compared to when I did this spreadsheet so the cost efficiency of piats has gone down.



Ciaos, EiRR is looking really good, don't know when I'd be able to hop back in again!

[gamesguy2]

I won´t even bother to waste more time here tbh.

I hope the size of my post didn't scare you off, it was merely to make a point.

If you can refute this-

PIATs can out-damage Schrecks, are completely unaffected by Skirts, often get rear armor hits, can be more accurate than Schrecks, and are only one-third the cost. Plus they fire over/through shit.
RRs deal similar damage to Schrecks (but take into account their high accuracy, the can easily out-DPS), penetrate a large majority of the time (100% if the vehicle doesn't have skirts), are always more accurate due to their low scatter angle, and are roughly half the cost.
'Zooks can deal equal or similar damage, can be more accurate, and are only one-fourth the cost. The only drawback is low penetration, which is more than made up for.

-than I'd love to your argument; don't just say "I'm not gonna bother" and storm out.
I don't see how you would though (that's why I want to hear your argument!), because not only have I verified everything I've said with CoH-stats, but I've also had lots of experience with all the forms of AT I mentioned both pre- and post- v.6

Easy.  I can prove that statement is completely wrong.

Lets start with piats:

1.  They are affected by skirts, so that first statement is outright wrong.   Piats are not affected by the penetration modifier offered by skirts, but they are affected by the 25% reduction in damage.  Go look it up on coh stats.

2. Piats are useless at long range against moving vehicles and tanks.  As long as you are not charging directly at the piats, a kiting tank or one moving laterally will evade 100% of all piat shots.     This is especially bad vs ACs and puma, which can and do just circle strafe piats all day and never get hit.


Now onto RRs:

1. RRs are hugely hampered by skirts.  Because they do not get a rear armor penetration multiplier(RRs penetrate the same shooting at the rear armor as the front armor, exceptions are tigers, hetzers, and the jagd), skirts hugely decrease their damage.   25% less penetration and 25% less damage is roughly a 40% damage decrease.     RRs are already low damage to start with.  160 munitions and the same damage as a single panzershrek that cost 110.   Skirts are a huge detriment to RRs.

2. Yes RRs hit more often against tanks.  On the flip side, against pumas and ACs they just phase through.  Shreks do better against M8s than RRs do against pumas.  I've seen a single puma kill two airborne squads with RRs because the vast majority of their shots just phase through.


Now lastly Bazookas:

1. They have terrible penetration.    Less than half the penetration of a shrek to start and with skirts you may as well not even bother.

2. They have the worse accuracy of all infantry AT weapons.   Significantly worse than shreks.

If you'd like I can show you the numbers.   Two bazookas firing against a P4 with skirts will do only about 60% the dps of a single shrek firing against a sherman.

On shreks:

1. They are by far the most pop efficient infantry AT available.  You can't beat dual shreks for pop efficiency.

2.  They are not restricted to elite infantry like RRs and bazookas.  Making them much more readily available and versatile.

3. The standard platform of the shrek, the grenadier, is far more durable and flexible than the standard platform of the piat, the sappers.

[Bubz]

btw, why are we even wasting time here? look who made it.

Killer's right, this thread is stupid.

[OrdobalticusTLS]

EDIT: Please do not post personal attacks.  The rest is fine. Das-

I have 6 shreks and I am very happy user of double shrek grens at least until zeal kicks in. 2 grens squads with 2x shreks is utter beast vs allied armor. Puddin is the master of shrek rush, learn from him power of shrek blob.

[LeTon]

3 Shreks in my current batallion. When I can afford the final munitions upgrade I'll probably move the number to 5-6. (Double shreks are 4tw).

I personally like a 2:1 ratio on my shreks to Pak38, and I find using them in combination incredibly effective.  It seems that one of the ATG's biggest weakness (and strengths sometimes) is that it gets flanked by croms / light armor / flankspeed sherms, but this is nice because it brings them right in range of the shrecks you had waiting in the bushes behind it.

I've also had a few 1 on 1 armor fights where that extra shreck into enemy armor allowed my panther to kill whatever it was shooting at, avoiding death in the process.

[Illegal_Carrot]

1.  They are affected by skirts, so that first statement is outright wrong.   Piats are not affected by the penetration modifier offered by skirts, but they are affected by the 25% reduction in damage.  Go look it up on coh stats.

I forgot about the damage mod when I wrote that, so I will concede that point. However, they still do 108 damage because of their huge damage mod, and often get rear armor hits due to their firing angle.

2. Piats are useless at long range against moving vehicles and tanks.  As long as you are not charging directly at the piats, a kiting tank or one moving laterally will evade 100% of all piat shots.     This is especially bad vs ACs and puma, which can and do just circle strafe piats all day and never get hit.

Ideally, yes, a Puma should beat PIATs all the time. But when you take certain factors into account, such as map terrain and pathing issues, and especially things like the PIAT's trajectory (over/through things) and PIAT Ambush, things lean back in favor of the PIAT.

1. RRs are hugely hampered by skirts.  Because they do not get a rear armor penetration multiplier(RRs penetrate the same shooting at the rear armor as the front armor, exceptions are tigers, hetzers, and the jagd), skirts hugely decrease their damage.   25% less penetration and 25% less damage is roughly a 40% damage decrease.     RRs are already low damage to start with.  160 munitions and the same damage as a single panzershrek that cost 110.   Skirts are a huge detriment to RRs.

I never said Skirts weren't a detriment to RRs, just that RRs were likely to pen anyways (which they are). I also that that despite their low damage, they easily out-DPS Schrecks due to their high accuracy (which is also true). In addition, the only reason RRs have the same front/rear penetration is because they pen 100% of the time, with the exception of Skirts and the tanks you listed.

2. Yes RRs hit more often against tanks.  On the flip side, against pumas and ACs they just phase through.  Shreks do better against M8s than RRs do against pumas.  I've seen a single puma kill two airborne squads with RRs because the vast majority of their shots just phase through.

If an M8 keeps moving at max range, it can beat a Schreck squad easy.
Phase-through bug really does suck, but it's a Relic bug so there's nothing that can be done. 
Really, though, with the exception of one unit, the Puma, RRs are more accurate.

1. They have terrible penetration.    Less than half the penetration of a shrek to start and with skirts you may as well not even bother.

I already admitted that is was the Zooks main drawback. It is, however, made up for by the fact that Zooks are 1/3 the price of Schrecks, and get huge damage (and even accuracy) bonus against Axis tanks.

2. They have the worse accuracy of all infantry AT weapons.   Significantly worse than shreks.

Hardly.
Here's a comparison of Zooks and Schreks
Accuracy at L/M/S
.35/.6/1 <-Zook
.35/.75/1 <-Schreck
A 15% difference at (and only at) Mid range is hardly 'significant.' Factor in the Zooks accuracy modifiers against certain Axis tanks, and the difference becomes even smaller.

1. They are by far the most pop efficient infantry AT available.  You can't beat dual shreks for pop efficiency.

I realize you made this post before v.6i, but uhh...

2.  They are not restricted to elite infantry like RRs and bazookas.  Making them much more readily available and versatile.

The only doctrine that does not have hand-held AT is Armor, which can either use hand-held AT from a Reinforcement package, or use their superior armor for AT capabilities (which their doctrine upgrades lets them do easily).
Of course, the Schrecks huge price means that it is seen less often that other forms of AT. It seems that most people take six Schrecks in their battalion, yet it is not uncommon to see 10-12 RRs/Zooks/PIATs in each Allied battalion. I'd have to say the Schreck isn't more abundant than other AT; just the opposite.

3. The standard platform of the shrek, the grenadier, is far more durable and flexible than the standard platform of the piat, the sappers.

Grens have more HP per man, but PIATs have Soldier armor, which makes them just as tough to almost all weapons. PIATs can fire over objects, which means they can fire at the enemy without even being engaged. On top of that, Allies in general have better AI capabilities with their vehicles than Axis, so engaging with Grens is a lot more dangerous than engaging with Sappers.

[Fr3ek]

10 rr's is like 2200 munitions... not to mention the manpower & pp costs -_-

There are more like 2-4 squads of rr's tops in airborne companies.

[Warlight]

I play tank hunters, so I figure, I sure as hell better be able to kill tanks. 

So along with all my anti-tank tanks I have 6 shreks.  This is partly because I run out of Manpower before I run out of Munitions.  So I stock up on Tank busters.  I probubly won't get the double shrek though.  Hopefully the Magnetic AT nades will be as Epic as they sound.