Doctrine Range Buffs

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[pqumsieh]

Some people have already brought this up, but I think range buffs should be limited to T4. Range buffs really change the balance of games drastically, so putting them in T2 and T3 positions is a bit sketchy, and ought to be done with extreme hesitation. What is the general thoughts on this?

PQ

edit: even T4's are a bit sketchy, as they can really offset alot of things.

[Blitzen]

disagree.  I like my PIVs getting range for t2 and at vet 2.  Its needed as I have a lot less tanks.  It also involves a lot of micro to use that range.  Its not just some noob ability.   
Also, your worried about things being ofset?  Having you seen all the abilities??? 

[Killer344]

Range buffs are indeed a must have for a t2 tbh.

[jackmccrack]

It is annoying to go up against.

[Mysthalin]

disagree.  I like my PIVs getting range for t2 and at vet 2.  Its needed as I have a lot less tanks.  It also involves a lot of micro to use that range.  Its not just some noob ability.   
Also, your worried about things being ofset?  Having you seen all the abilities??? 

Frankly, the only time when you'll have less tanks - if you field a heavy tank such as a panther or tiger. If the allies field a pershing, it's the exact same for them.


Pricing. > indicates which is more expensive.

P4 > Sherman. By 5 MP.
M10 > STuG. By 5 FU.
Stug > Hellcat. By 30 MP, 15 FU. (Who buys hellcats?)
Panther > .
Crocodile > Ostwind. By 50 FU.

Against the brittish, it's a tad bit different.
P4 > Cromwell. By 30 MP, 30 FU.
P4 > Churchil. 10 more MP, but 50 less FU.
Panther > Firefly. By 90 MP, 110 FU.
Brits have no equal to StuGs, StuHs or Ostwinds - all very cheap and very fun tanks.

[pqumsieh]

Well, its silly how improved barrels, at T2 Blitz, stacks with vet 2 to increase range by 9. Thats 49 yards, not hard to use when supported properly with an infantry advance. Also, for a T2, its a bit too powerful. In comparison, airborne (as an example) get 18% more range for a T4, which provides 2 additional meters (edit; tanks usually have 40 range, so it gives 1 or 2 more meters is what I meant) when compared to blitz's T2 improved barrels. Essentially, improved barrels and other range boosters override the benifits I get from my T4. This is only one example, other doctrines have range boosts (tank hunters) but they are either higher up on the tier or on specific units. As opposed to blitz's T2 which improves the range on all tanks.

This is just an example. Simply trying to point out some of the obvious problems I see. Eve n lowering the range boost to 5% would still put tanks at 42 yards, enough to kite any infantry on the field. Vet only makes this advantage greater.

So maybe just nerf improved barrels, increase damage by 5% or rate of fire by 10%. But not a range buff.

Discuss

[Mysthalin]

the T4 gives you 7 more range, not 2 .

[pqumsieh]

No, I meant if imp barrels was only 5% it would give 2 more meters. still enough to negate a T4.

[deadbolt]

disagree.  I like my PIVs getting range for t2 and at vet 2.  Its needed as I have a lot less tanks.  It also involves a lot of micro to use that range.  Its not just some noob ability.  
Also, your worried about things being ofset?  Having you seen all the abilities???  

Frankly, the only time when you'll have less tanks - if you field a heavy tank such as a panther or tiger. If the allies field a pershing, it's the exact same for them.


Pricing. > indicates which is more expensive.

P4 > Sherman. By 5 MP.
M10 > STuG. By 5 FU.
Stug > Hellcat. By 30 MP, 15 FU. (Who buys hellcats?)
Panther > .
Crocodile > Ostwind. By 50 FU.

Against the brittish, it's a tad bit different.
P4 > Cromwell. By 30 MP, 30 FU.
P4 > Churchil. 10 more MP, but 50 less FU.
Panther > Firefly. By 90 MP, 110 FU.
Brits have no equal to StuGs, StuHs or Ostwinds - all very cheap and very fun tanks.

Hellcats own, they outrange panthers and are lethal at vet 3 with the right micro, just check out my leaderboard hellcat

[Bubz]

It also involves a lot of micro to use that range.  Its not just some noob ability.   

It surely involves less micro than an unvetted pIV with normal range -.-

[Blitzen]

Depends,  I try to use the range by rolling up, popping a shot then rolling back.  PIVS can't take that much damange so avoid all fire is a must.
Also, axis will 99% of the time have less tanks.  2 of the werh doctrines use heavy tanks,  and most players need a panther to negate the difference in amount of tanks.  m10 also cannot be compared to stug.  Stug doesn't do much.  I use one, but it misses  and barely penetrates.   If you started a poll, I'd bet most allied players have around 2 more tanks then axis.

[pqumsieh]

Lets stay on topic guys, do you think range buffs should be limited? Do you think that T2 Blitz Improved barrels is a bit over the top?

Thoughts?

PQ

[AmPM]

Any ability that stands out as the must have over the other choices in its tier is out of balance.

[Bubz]

Stug doesn't do much.

Look at its pop, upgrades, and cost and refrase please.

[Sharpshooter824]

rofl stugs are amazing from my experiences with using them

[Blitzen]

Stug doesn't do much.  They can be good, I use em to back up paks. But they seem to miss an awful lot, and don't penetrate when they do hit.  And they can be circled.  M10 is rougly same price you said?  and much better.  But, not getting off topic.  Range is needed to keep em Viable as other doctrines get make their units better/stronger.

[bbsmith]

Stugs are the best thing since shreck storms.

[gamesguy2]

Improved barrels is good enough to be a tier 3.

Either the armor tier 2s need to increase in potency, or improved barrels need to decrease.

[Mysthalin]

2 of the werh doctrines use heavy tanks,  and most players need a panther to negate the difference in amount of tanks.

Are you dense or something? I just showed to you that the pricing does not allow for any more tanks on the US side than there are on the axis -.-. You may argue that brits get more tanks, but when have you honestly been plagued by brittish tanks? I bet it's the infantry that gets you when playing brits. If you didn't buy a panther or arty, and wen't P4s/Stugs, you'd get the exact same ammount of Shermans/M10s an US player gets.

The StuG sucks? It has poor penetration? Are you high? Just for comparisons :

Penetration at range :

/////////////         P4         Pak       StuG
Short                  1          1.25        1
Medium               0.9        0.9         0.9
Long                  0.8        0.85        0.8

Accuracy at range :


/////////////         P4         Pak       StuG
Short                  1           1           1
Medium                1        0.95          1
Long                  0.75      0.65        0.75

P4 penetration vs Sherman : 0.623. 87.5 dmg vs it.
Pak penetration vs Sherman : 0.755. 110 dmg vs it.
StuG penetration vs Sherman : 0.75 131.25 dmg vs it.
All have a 1 acc modifier vs a sherman.


P4 penetration vs Churchil : 0.58
Pak penetration vs Churchil : 0.48
StuG penetration vs Churchil : 0.58

All do standard damage, 1 acc modifier vs a sherman.

The StuG is more accurate than the P4 and the pak against the M10. It also deals as much damage as a pak to an M10 due to a modifier. An M10 can bounce Pak shots(up to a rate of 29 percent at long range). It can't bounce StuG shots.
It does more damage to emplacements better than the P4.
Much better damage against brit emplacements, buildings and bunkers than the Pak.
More powerful hits than the pak against : Jeeps, Bren Carriers, Greyhounds.


It does have just 0.5 moving accuracy, which is why it may seem that it hits poorly.

[scrapking]

Any ability that stands out as the must have over the other choices in its tier is out of balance.

Well, the other possibility is that all of the other choices are just that weak.