Piat Ambush

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[Aggamemnon]

Re-inforcements mean you can pretty much get anything for what you want to do.

The fact that every PE and Wehr do mix these units to make storms/ Pgrens yankbusters + IHT viable, pretty much as standard, means yes they do have the same options.

Nevermind cloaking vet 3 storms, with a full compliment of Schrecks thanks to the PE Falls, supply drop.

Both of Which Smokaz does :p

[CryingWolf]

Nevermind cloaking vet 3 storms, with a full compliment of Schrecks thanks to the PE Falls, supply drop.

Both of Which Smokaz does :p

And that rapes I've seen it with my own eyes. Had 2 squads of Stormies, 5 shreks among them. I kid you not, In ONE volley a FULL health cromwell was Out of control, think he did to a sherman as well. That was funny but OP at the same time.

You gonna spend an assload of PP just so you can clowncar some stormtroopers, that company would probably suck and you would spending mad amounts of pp per game..  I sure as hell am not.  And not everyone has that reinforcement option yet or at all.

I find the Luffe Reforcement package the most rewarding out all the PE ones. Falls and IHT in one package. The other two don't give me nothing that intrest's me, and the only PP cost would be paying for the package, unless you oversupply (which you don't need to do).
Also, IHT>Bren. Simply being, IHT has Surpession,Room for 2 SQUADS and cost pop wise the same as a bren.
2 Flamers, 2 Genadiers and 2 IHT's >Openings
Would use Stormies in the HT for opening (so they have 4 shreks in the clown car instead of 2) but I went for Terror.

Anyways, this is all is SERIOUSLY moving away from the reason the topic was posted.
It was the "opness" of Piat cloak. I don't find it that bad. Just keep moving and get a squad of Volks ect to spot them or just rush a tank (with crush) into cover they are. Might get hit once or twice. But you can push them out (which means they are now uncloaked) and/or run over some members which also helps

[deadbolt]

Currently, piat ambush gives the following bonuses:

+200% accuracy, +50% damage, plus several volleys without decloaking.

You can basically activate it anywhere with cover including in the middle of combat.

I think this ability was needed and fine with the old piats, but with the new piats, which are already effective without ambush, the piat ambush ability is overpowered.   One volley from the new piat in ambush will do 430 damage to an unskirted P4 and 324 damage to a skirted one.   Basically half to 2/3 the health of an axis medium tank.

Perhaps make it a purchased upgrade?   In return the turn while in cloak option could be enabled so the piats don't have to be facing the right direction while in ambush.

Thats ridiculous storms disappear in the middle of mg fire and pak can disappear in negative cover, atleast this  actually requires cover. If you want that fixin i want the axis equivalent fixin too.

[Sharpshooter824]

have people noticed how people as wehr using paks will leave the pak uncloaked for the first shot when your tank is rushing and then cloak as your tank gets ready to fire at the pak making the pak take 2 risk free shots of no damage...

tbh I think all cloaked units need to be looked at, it just ruins EIRR gameplay imo and doesn't fit in the current EIR environment..

[Baine]

200% accuracy don't stop them from flying past a moving target

But yeah, it's pretty op, i had like one sapper survive a piat clowncar explosion, that brought a panther down to 5%, i ran through the enemy blob of volks and grens, behind green cover(tree) and cloaked, everything stopped shooting, next shot hit the panther and destroyed the engine, before they decloaked me with infantry the panther was toast.

[NightRain]

Lets be simple.

DON'T BRING ANY OTHER UNIT COMBOS INTO THIS DISCUSSION IT IS ABOUT PIAT BEING ABLE TO ALMOST INSTA GIB A P4 WITH ITS AMBUSH ABILITY. AND AMBUSH WHEN MARIO KART IS DESTROYED. Thank you

Now the old PIAT was le crap since it couldn't hit on anything. A motorcycle can rolla round while under fire from PIATs and would survive for 2-4 volleys unless the brits get lucky.

Now with this newer Piat that has better accuracy adding 200% accuracy and 50% damage especially with the ability of PIATs hitting rear armor since it hits the top part of the tank. The ability to fire over obstacles with accurate fire is one thing that is annoying since people are unable to respond to that fire with whatever unit. Mhm ...

Nerfing PIAT will take away its use. Buffing its Price leads people not to buy it anymore. So what possible nerf/buff would work? Decrease accuracy a little?

[Malevolence]

DON'T BRING ANY OTHER UNIT COMBOS INTO THIS DISCUSSION IT IS ABOUT PIAT BEING ABLE TO ALMOST INSTA GIB A P4 WITH ITS AMBUSH ABILITY. AND AMBUSH WHEN MARIO KART IS DESTROYED. Thank you

What about a discussion about stormtroopers being able to almost insta gib a sherman with their ambush ability? Plus being able to move. Plus having better weapons and health and a way to heal...

PIATs are fine if Stormtroopers are fine.

[LuAn]

Nerfing PIAT will take away its use. Buffing its Price leads people not to buy it anymore. So what possible nerf/buff would work? Decrease accuracy a little?

I do like your thinking.

How about this:
Everytime the sappers leave a Building or Vehicle(including destruction of the vehicle) a small cooldown, 10-20 sec maybe, is applied to the piat ambush ability.

This way piats arent able to instant cloak every time their clown car gets destroyed but their ability still remains usefull.

OffTopic: Same thing happend to the Commando Smoke in vCoH, it used to be available all the time, and Commandos could drop everwhere, then use their smoke immideatly, so they changed it, that after commandos are dropped on the field they have a CD on their smoke ability.

[NightRain]

What about a discussion about stormtroopers being able to almost insta gib a sherman with their ambush ability? Plus being able to move. Plus having better weapons and health and a way to heal...

PIATs are fine if Stormtroopers are fine.

Stormtroopers beats PIATs in price. I don't know Storm's current Price but I'm sure that 2 Shrecks on Storm squad is a lot more munition and MP investment than a Sapper squad with PIATs. Stormtroopers are meant for rear line activity scouting usually spots them immidiately. If you beat a Storm squad off map or kill it and get a free shreck or get unlucky chance of getting no shreck you've destroyed more from enemy army compared to Wehr/PE destroying one PIAT squad and maybe get 1 PIAT or nothing

Note as well that Stormtrooprs are Axis elite infantry and PIAT squad is just an Engineer unit armed with Anti Vehicle weaponry. Thus Health difference, weapon difference and everything else. Both of these units has nothing in common except the Anti vehicle thing depending on How storms are armed

OffTopic: Same thing happend to the Commando Smoke in vCoH, it used to be available all the time, and Commandos could drop everwhere, then use their smoke immideatly, so they changed it, that after commandos are dropped on the field they have a CD on their smoke ability.

That would work. Adding a cooldown on evac vehicle thing for all Cloaking units would nullify immidiate storm drop cloak and sniper cloak thing and this PIAT cloak thing

[LuAn]

Adding a cooldown on evac vehicle thing for all Cloaking units would nullify immidiate storm drop cloak and sniper cloak thing and this PIAT cloak thing

Agreed

[Smokaz]

Please when you do a comparison of the effectiveness of stormies and piat sappers, note that the sappers are non-doctrinal infantry costing 2/3 of storms in manpower and around 1/3ish in terms of munitions. Which unit should be better at their job, the doctrinal infantry costing much more manpower/munitions or a cheaper non-doctrinal unit?

[Malevolence]

When you factor in the clown car the costs are pretty similar.

So it's which is more effective, a clown car bren of PIATs or a squad of stormtroopers?

[NightRain]

When you factor in the clown car the costs are pretty similar.

So it's which is more effective, a clown car bren of PIATs or a squad of stormtroopers?

But that is adding a new unit when the chat was only between Storms and PIATs. Adding in Bren is same like adding a IHT which has its own cost plus 50 pp cost Reinforcements which is either for Storms or for IHTs. Ain't too valid imo.

The fact that PIAT Ambush is 200% Accuracy and 50% Damage is enormous and the thing is, they can do it in middle of combat while under fire and then respond with 200% accuracy and 50% damage toward their attackers and if tank nearby it gets a lot of damage as caculated in earlier posts.

[Malevolence]

Well, no. Where there's storms there aren't necessarily IHTs, but where there are PIATs there can (and usually are) bren carrier cars.

The costs are similar, and since the units are paired so much anyway, it may as well be a valid comparison.


It would be like comparing a schrek and a pak to an overdrive sherman. The former are together very often and available to any wehr player, whereas the latter exist (and are arguably overpowered, just like the former to a different extent) in a much more concentrated doctrine space for their faction.

This is just like PIAT and bren being available to any commonwealth player, whereas stormtroopers exist in a much more concentrated (or less, depending on reinforcements) doctrine space for their faction.

[LuAn]

The fact that PIAT Ambush is 200% Accuracy and 50% Damage is enormous and the thing is, they can do it in middle of combat while under fire and then respond with 200% accuracy and 50% damage toward their attackers and if tank nearby it gets a lot of damage as caculated in earlier posts.

Piat does 90 Base dmg, so a piat ambush does 135.
A Wehrmacht Panzershrek does 120 dmg(at all times)

In my opinion the numbers on Piats, their pice, their stats + piat ambush are fine, its just the way piat ambush is currently usable and used so often not very fair(I mean the instant cloak after unloading)

A simple Cooldown on Piat Ambush after every unloading would fix this.

Offtopic: Something that affects the entire perception of piats is the fact that if you use Attack Ground with them their accuracy might seem a bit better, meaning that if you use attack ground in the middle of a tank the piats still scatter but over the entire tank.

[jackmccrack]

PIATS are fine and PIAT Sappers in Brens rarely make it out of combat alive.

[Detrian]

Piat does 90 Base dmg, so a piat ambush does 135.
A Wehrmacht Panzershrek does 120 dmg(at all times)

Do panzer elite use the same shreck than wehr in EiR? Because if not then the PE shreck does 105 damage.

Another thing that never gets mentioned is that not only is the bren smaller and easier to get around the retarded amount of obstacles you find in any map but also that the PIAT can shoot over all that shit without problems, making it vastly superior to shrecks.

[gamesguy2]

What about a discussion about stormtroopers being able to almost insta gib a sherman with their ambush ability? Plus being able to move. Plus having better weapons and health and a way to heal...

PIATs are fine if Stormtroopers are fine.

Storms cost 300 manpower and 280 munitions for dual shreks.   One volley from cloak does 240 damage to a sherman, out of 636 hp.

Piats cost 200 manpower and 100 munitions for a pair of piats.  One volley from cloak does 432 damage to unskirted P4s and 324 damage to skirted P4s, out of 600 hp.

I rest my case.

Piat does 90 Base dmg, so a piat ambush does 135.
A Wehrmacht Panzershrek does 120 dmg(at all times)

You forget piats get a huge damage bonus against most axis tanks.  It gets a 1.6 damage multiplier vs P4s, panthers, tigers, etc.    This goes down to 1.2 if the target is skirted.

[Smokaz]

Wow, I didn't know they were so ridicolous.

[Lemures]

When you factor in the clown car the costs are pretty similar.

So it's which is more effective, a clown car bren of PIATs or a squad of stormtroopers?

But that is adding a new unit when the chat was only between Storms and PIATs. Adding in Bren is same like adding a IHT which has its own cost plus 50 pp cost Reinforcements which is either for Storms or for IHTs. Ain't too valid imo.

The fact that PIAT Ambush is 200% Accuracy and 50% Damage is enormous and the thing is, they can do it in middle of combat while under fire and then respond with 200% accuracy and 50% damage toward their attackers and if tank nearby it gets a lot of damage as caculated in earlier posts.

Actually, the argument included the Bren Carrier and is the main reason PIAT ambush is even being considered OP. Because IF the engineers survive they can cloak using the carcass.

Well Fall and Storms can both cloak as much as they want, PIATs have a 60 second cooldown. Normally most shots miss anyways or there is only 1 piat left out of a squad of 4 men. Yes they can shoot over obstacles but Shrecks constantly hit our tanks at maximum range.