[PE] Balance - Improved Scopes and Tankbuster cloak

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[pqumsieh]

I've been playing with tank hunters for a bit now and I must say that improved scopes is far too powerful. Its not balanced atm because it is too great a range increase. A single hetzer usually gets about 10-20 infantry kills, 2-3 light vehicles, and 1 or 2 tanks per game. The 50mm also poses a bit of a problem when 2 or more of them are used with a sighting vehicle. The hotchkiss command tank makes this worse as it increase the range of these units by another 10-20% for 15 seconds every time it is activated. Overall, it comes back to the fact that range increases are far too powerful and cause too many imbalanced. This T4 should be redesigned imo.

As far as tankbuster/falls cloak. The issue stems form two areas; 1) they recloak continiously, I am not sure if this is a bug but they continue to recloak after each volly providing the buff once more. Second, if you take a look at the luftwafte doctrine, the amount of bonuses a falls tank buster squad can get + the ambush bonus stack to the point were shermans are 3 shotted. Either the damage needs to be reduced or the cloaking mechanic fixed. Currently, you cannot even snipe them unless you get a jeep close by because the wined up for the sniper shot usually gets cancled by the recloak. The only option seems to be arty and or mortors. Although this is a fair counter, it still does not justify nor warrent the amount of damage they can do and the fact that htey can continuely reloak.

What do you gusy think about these two issues,

PQ

[Smokaz]

Agreed on all accounts, with some minor additional input:

- Small range increases on mortars and mgs really isnt as gamebreaking as 40 range RR's or 70 range 50mm ATHT's (and snipers etc)

- Fallschirm tankbusters was a bad/dificult idea
- Its a bad idea because its too hard to balance without making it suck

Would anyone get "Dropping heavy T3" if it didnt give fallschirmjagers ambush with their shreks?

Whats the appeal in a Tier 3 for a 4 man squad with less hp than grenadiers than can cloak in cover only and buy a single shrek? Well theres APPEAL in it of course, since you can ambush, but with the current power level of most comparative stuff its just not that hot.

[EliteGren]

tbh I'd rather have henschel instead of fallschirm schrecks.

[Killer344]

50mm LAHT just doesn't fit the TH doctrine, it needs to be removed from it, it only helps to make that doctrine extreme on terms of AT capabilities.

[pqumsieh]

Problem with the tank buster falls is that htey are affected by other doctrine buffs like crete veterans. So the damage increase makes the shrek an extremely powerful tank destroyer; more so when you consider the additional ambush bonuses. I am also worried about tank hunters getting double efforts (2 shreks) and using ambush on their tank busters; although I wouldnt considered that OP and think it should remain the same for now.

[CafeMilani]

Problem with the tank buster falls is that htey are affected by other doctrine buffs like crete veterans. So the damage increase makes the shrek an extremely powerful tank destroyer; more so when you consider the additional ambush bonuses. I am also worried about tank hunters getting double efforts (2 shreks) and using ambush on their tank busters; although I wouldnt considered that OP and think it should remain the same for now.

YOU as an AB player should definately not complain about such a buff since u get +35% dmg and penetration on your ABs. LOL

[AmPM]

The range thing isn't that bad by itself.

Its that its only tied to very specific doctrines giving them an incredible advantage over every other doctrine.

TH only excels with Scopes because it out ranges any other armor in the game.

50mm ATHT still needs its rate of fire lowered as I had suggested a while back.

FJ TB squads are nuts, now its just more elite infantry spam. So you have AB companies spamming the AB blob and the LW company spamming FJ blobs. Both sides are insanely powerful compared to other doctrines right now.

[pqumsieh]

I also play RCA, US Armor, PE Tank Buster, PE Scorched Earth, in addition to US Airborne. I've already stated many times that many aspects of airborne company either need to be toned down or other doctrines need to be brought into line. I'd rather the latter then the former.

This thread is not discussing airborne doctrine atm though, so please refrain from derailing this thread.

PQ

[RikiRude]

yeah the ambush mechanic has got to be busted on those tank busters. they would shoot, and my tank wouldnt get a round off before the would instantly recloak. def broken.

[Theonepower777]

I use the falls a lot, thing is a lot of times i don't have time to put them in cover for the ambush bonuses. Most of the time they're in buildings or halftracks.

[spinn72]

increase all tanks range by 5 and sight by 10.  Therefore every PE tank can see and shoot its max range or near its max range, but wont be able to snipe ATGs so easily.  They're scopes anyway, and i didn't see why sight wasnt already a buff.

I usually see G43s cloak while fighting behind cover anyway with cloak so its just not the schrek that kills us all.  Its the damage, and especially the accuracy bonus that kills you. 

[pqumsieh]

Although somewhat a side topic, when you compare the bonuses airborne receive (aloha mentioned 35% damage and accuracy) the platform these bonuses are being applied to must be considered. 35% more damage on a 66.7 damage RR vs 35% more damage on a 120 damage shrek is quite a difference in DPS output. Accuracy is not really needed on the RR either since it is already a long range and accurate handheld AT; whereas, the shrek is a short-medium range handheld AT that is improved more with accuracy. Additionally, when you add the extra accuracy from ambush you have a pretty high hit rate at long range with the damage of two RR's.

Those aspects must be considered, -Nice trolling is still trolling. Das-

PQ

[Warlight]

50mm LAHT just doesn't fit the TH doctrine, it needs to be removed from it, it only helps to make that doctrine extreme on terms of AT capabilities.

No, the Tank hunters are the only people who should get this Half Track...

[wildsolus]

As far as tankbuster/falls cloak. The issue stems form two areas; 1) they recloak continiously, I am not sure if this is a bug but they continue to recloak after each volly providing the buff once more. Second, if you take a look at the luftwafte doctrine, the amount of bonuses a falls tank buster squad can get + the ambush bonus stack to the point were shermans are 3 shotted. Either the damage needs to be reduced or the cloaking mechanic fixed. Currently, you cannot even snipe them unless you get a jeep close by because the wined up for the sniper shot usually gets cancled by the recloak.
PQ

just played a game vs pq with quite a few tb fall squads...they are stronger then storm with shreks. they can 2 shot a hellcat since they keep cloaking and get the ambush shit. doctrine + vet buffs on top of that it can, as pq mentioned, 3 shot the sherman.

for a doctrine that is usually an anti-infantry doctrine....this completely fills in the hole for their one weakness.

[RikiRude]

50mm LAHT just doesn't fit the TH doctrine, it needs to be removed from it, it only helps to make that doctrine extreme on terms of AT capabilities.

No, the Tank hunters are the only people who should get this Half Track...

but TH has jagd, improved schrecks, double schrecks, tellers, hetzers.

i think its the other PE doctrines that could use an extra hand dealing with tanks and vehicles. either way, the rof and i THINK the range needs to be looked at on this thing. it seems to have too crazy of range, but it could be the doctrine buffs ive been seeing that do it.

[Tymathee]

I think the falls tb squads shouldn't be affected by some of the tier upgrades, it just makes them too good and then with the ambush bonuses, they can still defend themselves against infantry.

[LuAn]

I think the falls tb squads shouldn't be affected by some of the tier upgrades, it just makes them too good and then with the ambush bonuses, they can still defend themselves against infantry.

I think the Airborne Riflemen squads shouldn't be affected by some of the tier upgrades, it just makes them too good and then with the sticky bombs, they can still defend themselves against vehicles  .

No seriously: Falls are great in cover with their ambush bonus, but thats how they are supposed to be. A few people havent realized how to use them yet, and charge around with them as if they are commandos

On a side note: If the Heroes of Monte Casino T3 makes it back into the mod in a somehow similiar version to what it was said to be like, we can discuss a possible exlusion of the shrek on FJ-TB if a similiar change to airborne is made. (I think the shreks could be excluded from this buff, but really only the shreks.)

[Mysthalin]

Actually..

Scorched Earth has marders, (50) LATHTs and hotchkisses(with upgun they penetrate pershings at max range 100 percent of the time - needs fix?), and roadblocks that are not crushable to slow down the enemy as they die to the (50) LATHTs and marders.

Luftwaffe has all that, shrek falls, and the worst thing of all : the henschel strafe. That just destroys any tank you please, and creates "you can't go there with your tanks" zone. Should be toned down, in my humble opinion - at least in damage, if nothing else. Butterfly mines are another thing - they constantly penetrate and injure tanks, and if that wasn't enough, they always damage vehicle engines, and they constantly immobilise tanks. The butterfly mine is powerful as it is versus infantry, and it's effectiveness should also be toned down.

Tank destroyers is quite self-explanatory awesome versus tanks, and it's only the jagd that needs a little teency weency nerf.