overbuffed T17

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[von_Luchs]

Alll thats needed is a hard counter thats pop efficient against T17s/Stags.  As of right now, P4s or higher are the only reliable counter, which is way too expensive for the simple task of beating light vehichle spam.

You can have 2 paks cloaked, a shrek, and KNOW 2 T17s are coming and still lose without even hurting one of them.  And, they may get enginge damage with the occasional lucky mortar hit, but will almost never suffer eng damage from a rear pak or shrek hit.

T17s cost should be upped, they way overperform for their price, or alternatively their counters should be buffed against them (shreks and paks).

By the way, the only vehichles Osts kill reliably are HTs and jeeps.  They may score the rear killing blow against an M8, T17 or Stag but they arent a counter to any of those. 

[Mysthalin]

So, you bother to build a starting callin that costs 1000 MP and 340 MU and 13 popcap because you KNOW 2 T17s are coming, and you don't even consider taking a P4 for just 400 MP 260 FU and 12 pop, instead?

I do agree T17s need to lose their greyhound armor - but claiming there's no pop-efficient counter to them whatsoever is preposterous. Not only willl said P4 counter the 2 T17s, it will continue to shoot down 10+ infantry after the T17s are dealt with, as well.

[CrazyWR]

T17's are a weak strat, never had problems with any light vehicle.

this.  They play their role well if used properly, but they are not invincible deathstars that insta-gib every unit it drives by.

[tank130]

T17's are a weak strat, never had problems with any light vehicle.

this.  They play their role well if used properly, but they are not invincible deathstars that insta-gib every unit it drives by.

LOL... I agree. The invincible deathstars are the KT.....

But in all seriousness, there is really no point complaining about a unit around here. When I complained about the KT, I was told to use recon in my opening call in. So let me pass along the same advice so freely given to me by the axis majority.

WTFL2P, use Recon, the unit is weak and easily defeated, the unit sucks, I never have a problem.
The T17 is fine.

Oh wait, here's the comments I really love "if you nerf the T17, then we should get rid of the KT and storm troopers"

That should help you

[CommieKillerz]

Of course T17s can't handle anything above tanks.  No other light vehicle can either (except maybe tetrarchs).

The point is, the bastards are so damn cost-effective.
Compare T17s to ostwinds (the most similar unit):
It's faster, have more power, have more survivability, and much cheaper.

Almost every shot it fires kills inf and it fires in bursts.
It also has abilities, as well as doctrinal advantages. 

[von_Luchs]

So, you bother to build a starting callin that costs 1000 MP and 340 MU and 13 popcap because you KNOW 2 T17s are coming, and you don't even consider taking a P4 for just 400 MP 260 FU and 12 pop, instead?

I do agree T17s need to lose their greyhound armor - but claiming there's no pop-efficient counter to them whatsoever is preposterous. Not only willl said P4 counter the 2 T17s, it will continue to shoot down 10+ infantry after the T17s are dealt with, as well.

The point of my post was that the P4 (or bigger) is the only hard counter to T17s and stags, which is precisely the problem.  

The fact the only hard counter to light vehichle spam is armor inevitably sets the ground for an attrition war that an allied player has a better chance of winning because T17s are so resource efficient as opposed to their counters.  If I have to risk and waste my P4s to chase and kill T17s then what do I do for M18s and M10s? Not to mention pershings who eat P4s?  

By the way P4s aslo cost 50-140(?) munis.  P4 without skirts is garbage. 

In any case, isnt the whole point of AT units to kill them? So yeah if i get shreks and ATGs set up I expect T17s to die, is that asking too much?

[Mysthalin]

The point of my post was that the P4 (or bigger) is the only hard counter to T17s and stags, which is precisely the problem.

Shreks and paks do fine against Stags. T17s are a bit more of a problem in open ground, but get into a town and gg for the T17s. Use stone walls to block the T17s or whatnot. Use a 15 mun mine to hardcounter the T17s ;P.

The fact the only hard counter to light vehichle spam is armor inevitably sets the ground for an attrition war that an allied player has a better chance of winning because T17s are so resource efficient as opposed to their counters.  If I have to risk and waste my P4s to chase and kill T17s then what do I do for M18s and M10s? Not to mention pershings who eat P4s? 

So is he spamming Pershings or M10/18s or Light Vehicles? Make up your mind.

The logic behind chasing a 6.5 speed vehicle with a 5 speed vehicle is also incomprehensible to me - what good will the T17 do if it's away from your units? Just deter it and let it sit there as an 8 popcap sink, or make it die on it's way out of the fray. Charging tanks means losing them - works for every tank against anything. I mean, do you charge airborne with a single or couple KCH when the airborne are protected by a sherman/quad? It works for all units.
For the M10/18s - if the T17s are dead, the M10/18s don't pose a threath to your paks and shreks. Your P4s are dead too, so the M10/18s don't really serve a role other than to be popcap-intensive damage sponges/crushinators.

Also, Improved barrel P4s eat pershings for breakfast. German Steel as well. Double P4 rush will generaly destroy a pershing too. Heck, 2 upgun hotchkisses will utterly rape the pershing and work obscenely well as anti-T17.

[Demon767]

T17's are fine, it just counters majority of the playerbase call'ins/Battalion and the players on fault bringing bunch of AT when you just need a new strat, and a few mines. hell i see less mines but they are the most strongest weapon against any unit

[Dnicee]

"T17s are a bit more of a problem in open ground, but get into a town and gg for the T17s. Use stone walls to block the T17s or whatnot. Use a 15 mun mine to hardcounter the T17s ;P."

i cant really see the logic in what you said there. well in general the battle is fought all over the map not only in the middle of a town. Use a 15 mun mine as hardcounter? Wow either you need lots of mines or place them like a fucking god?

You shouldnt be forced into a wall with your pak with a mine... a side note on that. There is not always that many walls in open ground.




Btw Mysthalin has always loved light vehicles.

[Demon767]

Than call me a fucking Mine god. 12 mines, bunch on main roads and choke points work wonders and after you can use the flamers equiped. if i could only count how many poor vet has wondered into my mines every single game  its extreme. my mines wins the battles for me hands down.

[von_Luchs]

Since apparently you didnt read closely enough, I only use spam once in that quote, and in reference to Lt. vehichles only.  So not sure what your point is, since we know that you can field a co. with 2 pershings and 3 T17s with no problems.

And again you restate the problem, because your right, chasing would be silly, but whats the alternative since a P4 cant cap.  So you have 4 alternatives: 1) dont chase and camp with P4 as a 12 pop sink, 2)advance with P4 and not cap, in which case you leave your support alone, and 3) you advance with P4 and some inf, in which case you have less support weapons, or 4) you blob everything together.

Now, because the T17/Stag are a superb support weapon killers leaving any support alone is always risky if you know they are on the field.  It is in those situations where the T17/Stag shine, the accuracy, the speed, and the no reload time just mows shit down becasue if it sees support anywhere it kills it, becasue it has nothing to fear.  

In a typical 25 pop cap core if you start with P4 you probably wont have more than just 1 more peice of AT, so either its a pak or a shrek; if its the first, 1 pak has no chance vs T17, if its the second, then shrek is either with P4 capping, or hopefully in a building because otherwise it will not beat a T17 (maybe only doubleshreked storms can do it, if they still exist).

Lets say the P4 is even close enough to drive back and help.  Usually in the time that takes the T17 has done some damage and can still get away, a good armor player rinse and repeats this to all support weapons.  

So now your back to square one, do you chase?

Its not impossible, just imbalanced.

[Killer344]

Locked, before someone decides to revive this old thread once more.

It has been talked about it in the balance advisor's forum already.