[WM] Panzer IV

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[Tymathee]

I think they should go back to the way they used to be with Skirts either coming at vet 1 or vet 2 especially since it now does less damage to all weapon and not just hand held at, they are really powerful early war and a p4 with skirts can take on an up-gunned Sherman with no doc abilities because of the lower damage incoming. I think it's 10% from all sources? So since Sherman do 87.5 damage, that's 78.75 per hit, even if it penetrate every time cuz of the up-gun, the p4 is still doing its full 87.5 damage vs the Sherman. Whats the point of getting an up-gunned Sherman, when all they've gotta do is buy skirts, which btw are cheaper than the upgun and are more useful, and the up-gun is basically negated?

Up-Gun = 75 Mu - Basically 100% more penetration, reload goes down  6 to 7 secs and you lose AOE dmg plus add 3 (1 to 4) post firing aim time.

Side Skirts = 60 Mu - I forget all the numbers but there's no penalties for taking skirts and all benefit

So what exactly do I get for going up-gun? I can penetrate a regular p4 100% of the time with full damage but get lower dmg vs skirted p4 which can still beat me one vs 1 cuz it takes me longer to reload and I do less damage. I can take on panther now maybe but it's just 50% of the time i penetrate

I'd either like to see Skirts be more expensive if kept without vet, or moved to vet 1 or vet 2.

As pq says "Discuss!"

[Killer344]

yeah... because p4s also come with free up-guns that let them penetrate shermans 100% ...

[Wolster]

I think Axis armour is reeling from the following:-

1) Airborne RR range & survivability.

2)The shear volume (& with multiple repair options survivability) of allied vehicle spam.

3)The steep Schrek price increases on an already scare munitions resource.

4)A very fragile partner in PE which seems to always get out attritioned atm..(my own opinion ofc)

Carnt believe people are still trying to nurf Axis more, getting far to depressing, these P4s have got alot to take on at the moment & need all the help they can get.

[Mukip]

I think Axis armour is reeling from the following:-

1) Airborne RR range & survivability.

2)The shear volume (& with multiple repair options survivability) of allied vehicle spam.

Not this early into the war they aren't, everyone is level 1.  Apparently EIRMOD is looking to reduce the overall availability of vehicles too.  The price increases on handhelt AT went both ways too.

[Trishut]

To make it come with vet will only buff good players and nerf bad players, and dealing with the bad players P4 is much easier so I think it's better if it cost ammo.

And I use upgunned shermans to be able to hurt a p4 badly instead of being forced to retreat with an unupgunned sherman.

I think it's pretty balanced like it is now.

[Wolster]

Ofc they arnt this early in the war, but we all no its their waiting at the top end, & changes made in response to the opening thread need to be balanced from start to finish in a war, so end game needs to be included.

[Tymathee]

Ofc they arnt this early in the war, but we all no its their waiting at the top end, & changes made in response to the opening thread need to be balanced from start to finish in a war, so end game needs to be included.

Exactly. Once we get to heat rounds and other buffs to p4's, then they're just seriously spammed and there's always at least two on the field by either one person or one by each teammate.

I think Axis armour is reeling from the following:-

1) Airborne RR range & survivability.

2)The shear volume (& with multiple repair options survivability) of allied vehicle spam.

3)The steep Schrek price increases on an already scare munitions resource.

4)A very fragile partner in PE which seems to always get out attritioned atm..(my own opinion ofc)

Carnt believe people are still trying to nurf Axis more, getting far to depressing, these P4s have got alot to take on at the moment & need all the help they can get.

Like mudkip said, all HH AT got nerfed by at least 10 per piece. So cute how the Axis keep on harping on their glorious schrecks gettin nerfed lol.

Recoilless Rifles: 180 Mun (From 165)
Rangers: 330 MP, 90 Mun (From 330 MP, 80 Mun)
Bazooka: 55 Mun (50 Mun)

Piat Sappers: 180 MP, 120 Mun (From 200 MP, 100 Mun)
Piat Commandos: 180 MP, 120 Mun (From 180 MP, 120 Mun)

Panzerschreck: 140 Mun (From 120 Mun)
Double Panzerschrecks: 240 Mun (From 220 Mun)
Stormtrooper Panzerschreck: 160 Mun (From 140)
Double ST Panzerschrecks: 300 Mun (From 280)

Tank Buster Grenadiers: 195 MP, 120 Mun (From 195 MP, 110 Mun)
Extra Panzerschreck: 100 Mun (From 90 Mun)
FJ Tankbuster: 250 MP, 120 Mun (from 250 MP, 110 Mun)

Now, put on the fact that most companies run the full complement of p4's and that skirts reduce the incoming damage and penetrate of all hh at by 25%, couple that with the fact that Allied HHAT already does less damage than schrecks and you can see how huge of a difference that skirts make to the survivability of P4's.

[Tymathee]

Last thing, tell me this, do you ever see p4's without skirts? I know I don't...couple that with the fact that allied infantry have lower health and will always die to a single shot of a p4 even by splash damage if it even gets close, they're beat all's vs the allies, taking on all armor and infantry, while allied armor is mainly used to take on infantry and run from tanks. m10's and m18's can only be used sparingly and in hit n run tactics but as soon as the p4 sneezes in its direction it goes down.

[Wolster]

I carnt be arsed to be honest, my above points are all valid enough counters.

I think Allied players are so cute to how they keep raising these whiney threads every time a P4 wins an encounter with a Sherman.

[RikiRude]

simply put if P4s get skirts and MG with no vet then i want all my rifles to have the following option.

stickies for 60 munitions
improved stickies for 80 munitions

improved stickies will have vet 2 throwing range, 5% higher crit chances, and 5% more damage. throwing range does not stack when rifles reach vet 2.

[gamesguy2]

Last thing, tell me this, do you ever see p4's without skirts? I know I don't...couple that with the fact that allied infantry have lower health and will always die to a single shot of a p4 even by splash damage if it even gets close, they're beat all's vs the allies, taking on all armor and infantry, while allied armor is mainly used to take on infantry and run from tanks. m10's and m18's can only be used sparingly and in hit n run tactics but as soon as the p4 sneezes in its direction it goes down.

P4s without skirts get owned hard by RRs.   Old EIR had RRs at 220 each for a reason.

RR prices need to go up massively if skirts are nerfed.

And screw heat rounds and P4s, they're has-beens.   Airborne still rape the shit out of P4s no problem, piats from cloak still take half the hp of a skirted P4 in one volley.   I don't run a single P4 in my blitz anymore cause they just suck vs most allied companies.

[Tymathee]

I carnt be arsed to be honest, my above points are all valid enough counters.

I think Allied players are so cute to how they keep raising these whiney threads every time a P4 wins an encounter with a Sherman.

Dude, a skirted p4 with always beat an up-gunned sherman. The very fact that if I go one v one vs a skirted p4 in several games against different players and even if he's got less health than I do, he's got the balls to fight it out that just shows you how much stronger they are. The fact is, the only way shermans beat p4s is if the sherman has full health and the p4 has half health. The rule of law is you just dont go 1v1 with any allied tank vs axis tank, unless it's a m10 or m18 circle stafing or a pershing going up against a panther or p4. Everyone knows this.

[Tymathee]

Last thing, tell me this, do you ever see p4's without skirts? I know I don't...couple that with the fact that allied infantry have lower health and will always die to a single shot of a p4 even by splash damage if it even gets close, they're beat all's vs the allies, taking on all armor and infantry, while allied armor is mainly used to take on infantry and run from tanks. m10's and m18's can only be used sparingly and in hit n run tactics but as soon as the p4 sneezes in its direction it goes down.

P4s without skirts get owned hard by RRs.   Old EIR had RRs at 220 each for a reason.

RR prices need to go up massively if skirts are nerfed.

And screw heat rounds and P4s, they're has-beens.   Airborne still rape the shit out of P4s no problem, piats from cloak still take half the hp of a skirted P4 in one volley.   I don't run a single P4 in my blitz anymore cause they just suck vs most allied companies.

you dont use 'em but i constantly come up against p4 spam in games i play and not one of them doesn't use skirts.

[gamesguy2]

Last thing, tell me this, do you ever see p4's without skirts? I know I don't...couple that with the fact that allied infantry have lower health and will always die to a single shot of a p4 even by splash damage if it even gets close, they're beat all's vs the allies, taking on all armor and infantry, while allied armor is mainly used to take on infantry and run from tanks. m10's and m18's can only be used sparingly and in hit n run tactics but as soon as the p4 sneezes in its direction it goes down.

P4s without skirts get owned hard by RRs.   Old EIR had RRs at 220 each for a reason.

RR prices need to go up massively if skirts are nerfed.

And screw heat rounds and P4s, they're has-beens.   Airborne still rape the shit out of P4s no problem, piats from cloak still take half the hp of a skirted P4 in one volley.   I don't run a single P4 in my blitz anymore cause they just suck vs most allied companies.

you dont use 'em but i constantly come up against p4 spam in games i play and not one of them doesn't use skirts.

Thats a symptom of allied hand-held AT being way too cost effective. 

[Unkn0wn]

Would you agree that this issue could largely stem from 40 Mun repair kits giving every PanzerIV a second life?

[gamesguy2]

Would you agree that this issue could largely stem from 40 Mun repair kits giving every PanzerIV a second life?

Honestly I think its the vast disparity between tanks with skirts and tanks without.

Tanks without skirts die horribly fast to extremely cost effective piats and RRs.   Its ridiculous how much damage piats and RRs do to say a tiger.   A P4 with skirts has more effective hp vs RRs than a tiger.

Allied handhelds has created this weird situation where a heavy tank without skirts die faster than a medium tank with skirts.    This is why the pershing is so much more useful than a tiger.   Shreks do equal damage to the pershing as a sherman and penetrate a lot less often.

Remove skirts, hugely increase the price on piats and RRs, and then increase RR acc modifier vs puma armor so it doesnt phase as much.

[Unkn0wn]

We've just increased the price on manpacked AT so I wouldn't expect to see any further price increases on those right away. My point is that the issue of 'PzIV spam' Tym is experiencing probably has more foundation in the cheap and easy use of repair kits than it has in the 'excessive' use of sideskirts.

[gamesguy2]

We've just increased the price on manpacked AT so I wouldn't expect to see any further price increases on those right away. My point is that the issue of 'PzIV spam' Tym is experiencing probably has more foundation in the cheap and easy use of repair kits than it has in the 'excessive' use of sideskirts.

Then the situation will continue.  Tanks without skirts will continue to die at a disproporationate rate compared to tanks with skirts.

I think P4 spam is a weak strat in the current metagame so I don't REALLY see a problem with it.

[Wolster]

The simple reason the P4 needs to win an encounter with a sherman is because the P4 having dealt with the Sherman will for its next trick fight off a hoard of miscellaneous allied vehicles or be gibbed by a cheap arse M10/M18, & lets face if it wins its usually left with minimal health or a busted engine from mine damage or stickies & is soon finished off.

Why keep comparing P4s vs Shermans at all, they are different units which have got to cope with a range of varied vehicles from the opposition, instead of moaning your bag off about the Sherman ditch it & use a mixed bag of M10s & M18s you have plenty of other fuel based options if one isnt suiting your particular need.

Personnally im having a hell of a time dealing with these medium class of tank destroyers being spammed & my Pz4 are coming out of the exchange on the losing side (even with my skirts - which drain my meagre munition stockpile further) to the extent that instead of moaning these need nurf, im trading in my P4s for a Panther to try & compete.

So dust yourself down, switch up your company abit & get back in there fighting.

[Draken]

Well p4s are most effective medium tanks for their price (not to say underpriced).
 
For 10 fuel more you get unupgunned sherman counter, it's like upgunned sherman was 10 fuel more expensive then p4, I think you get what I mean.

If you have 12 pop and don't know what to bring p4 is always best solution, good ai good at. And repair kits doubles your p4 life time by 70-80% (sometimes you can't run away like double m10 rush with no other at support).