[WM] Panzer IV

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[gamesguy2]

2 RRs cost 180 MU.
3 Would cost 270 MU.

RRs do miss, and quite often. Just they got good scatter values, so their shots don't spread out so much. They do NOT always penetrate anything - not in the least.

RRs only miss puma armor, period.  Pretending otherwise is being dishonest.

And they SUCK vs infantry, and the carbines on the 4 other airborne are about as good as 1 grenadier rifle at long range or 2 at close and medium range.

1 PE rifle is worth 3 carbines at long range, 1.5 at medium and close range.

Yes because a dual shreked squad is really uber at anti-infantry.

[Unkn0wn]

Stick to the topic at hand please.
If you want to go on about RRs & panzerschrecks do that somewhere else

[Malevolence]

We could go on about RRs and panzerschreks in relation to the Panzer IV, I suppose. Needs moar skirts.

[AmPM]

The Panzer IV is a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!! We shall find it and prove to the world that the axis of evil does exist!

You know, back when they assigned countries to the "Axis of Evil", I was really hoping for an evil organization like COBRA to be it....but no, its a bunch of 3rd world countries who have no Vipers, nor any crazy ass vehicles straight out of a sci-fi movie. Where are the flying Pods! Where!!

[anthony210]

The Panzer IV is OP, it needs to have its turret removed and a stug like fixed gun attached to it and reduce to the caliber to a AA gun type weapon such as the ostwind but make it so it is completly innacurate.  Also please remove the ball HMG, way to OP to have any MG on the P4.  Also make it so it has to lock down to us its gun.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Axis/Allies were not designed to mirror each other. Stop expecting P4s and Shermans to be equal AT-wise.

Well prices are almost mirror like even if unupgunned sherman will get raped by p4.

What the 75mm lacks in AT it more than makes up for in AI. The 75mm is better at AI than the P4's main gun (and 1v1 it will even leave the P4 badly damaged). The 76mm is better at both AI and AT than the P4's main gun.
Stop using the 75mm Sherman vs the P4 as a way of balancing Skirts. The comparison doesn't make any damn sense, and does nothing for balance. Just because Tym had one bad experience with a P4 and is throwing a tizzy-fit doesn't mean everyone has to jump on the band wagon.
If you're so stupid as to demand that P4 and Shermans be compared, make the 76mm 60Mu (the same as Skirts) and be done with it.

RRs do miss, and quite often. Just they got good scatter values, so their shots don't spread out so much. They do NOT always penetrate anything - not in the least.

RRs always hit - don't deny it. Their insanely low scatter angle means that they are 100% effective at long range, which makes them infinitely more useful. However, this is off-topic, so I will not continue it further.

And they SUCK vs infantry, and the carbines on the 4 other airborne are about as good as 1 grenadier rifle at long range or 2 at close and medium range.

Who the fuck is comparing RRs/Schrecks AI capabilities? And in what way is this, too, not completely off-topic?

The Panzer IV is OP, it needs to have its turret removed and a stug like fixed gun attached to it and reduce to the caliber to a AA gun type weapon such as the ostwind but make it so it is completly innacurate.  Also please remove the ball HMG, way to OP to have any MG on the P4.  Also make it so it has to lock down to us its gun.

Don't joke about it, anthony. This is how it's going to be soon.

[Thepassenger]

Skirts are for little girls.

Had to throw that in.

[Mysthalin]

And also, they are way better against inf than the shrecks.

Who the fuck is comparing RRs/Schrecks AI capabilities? And in what way is this, too, not completely off-topic?

Please be as wise to read the entire thread before attacking me for trying to de-rail the thread.

RRs always hit - don't deny it. Their insanely low scatter angle means that they are 100% effective at long range

No, they don't. Or have you forgotten about the ever-popular phase armour bug?

[panzerman]

Skirts are for little girls.

Had to throw that in.

so true that is why p4 need em.

and i reckon allies are just having a rant cause the can't handle p4  killing there infantry.

axis get the same problem when we get surprise of double sherman starts that disrupt everything that u have

[salan]

and i reckon allies are just having a rant cause the can't handle p4  killing there infantry.

kinda like the officer thread with all the axis complaining ?

[panzerman]

so true hey!

and i just posted stuff about that...

i think i was more shocked at how much damage he was doing let alone the bonuses to the riflemen

[Guderian6pndr]

The P4 deserves it's slight benefits in this case, as it is bearing the brunt of the wehrmacht's workload. It's not on the level with shermans exactly because allies have plenty of light to medium AT vehicles which are all fast, whereas the
P4 is the Axis mainstay and is slower than every allied vehicle besides churchills (until they get flank speed), so it has a lot of trouble just getting out of engagements. ....

The Panzer IV has the maximum speed of 5 which is only .2 slower then most sherman varients which means speed diffrences are pretty neglitable.

Also Puma can be upgunned to act as Light/medium AT (Which also happens to be faster then the M8).

Umm... the top speed really has nothing to do with my argument, its the 25% better acceleration that means shermans can pull out sooner when ATs open up. P4s often waffle around trying to back up and take two AT shells for the price of one (which is almost an entire life as far as repairing and usefulness goes).

Also, the Puma's upgun is almost identical to the stuart except it fires slowly and misses infantry. If any upgun is overpriced and/or useless its that one, even for 50 mun. Again, it's speed is negligible and since it dies in 2-3 shots from almost anything it's not worth paying for a unit that can just barely take on a stuart alone.

[zinser7]

going against 4 skirted PIV's is just too much currently... handheld At is largely ineffective while the PIV's kite and gibble the saps trying to zook,RR, or sticky as the great AI tanks they are. On top of that  PV's>allied tanks for most of the war until the final allied doc unlocks when they become much closer. Where is the counter to this? AT guns? Current games are just axis hunts for AT guns while PIV's gibble along the way.

So possibilities? Make them purchasable at vet2 as in the old days? Make it a defensive Doc unlock? a separate unit for less availability? At this point in the war it seems to be out of wack. Allies can't field enough AT to counter from what I've seen. 

[RikiRude]

one thing i always liked about vet for skirts was you felt like they earned those skirts. you were like damn. though i do see the idea of making it so there is less of a noob/pro thing. but at the same time, that means that noob players might not ever get a chance to use stickies effectively because they can't get their rifles to vet 2.

another thing about skirts, and i dont know if you can call it too much of a problem is that it pretty much changes the way armor doctrine plays out, here's what i mean.

in old EIR as armor company once you got tungsten tipping on your shermans, you never had to upgun them because they could take on P4s a bit better. a vetted P4 you'd want to stay away from, but vanilla P4s were fine, heck even your m8 could throw a shot in too if you wanted it. so skirts helps negate the power of TT.

the "problem" is now, you don't see vanilla P4s... ever. i can't recall when i have seen a P4 that didn't have skirts. P4s might as well come with skirts and have the muni cost already included in their price. this is just the way eirr plays out now though.

[AmPM]

Thats because anti tank infantry are so cheap, even now.

I remember back in the day when a gren schrek was like 200mu.

[Pak88mm]

going against 4 skirted PIV's is just too much currently... handheld At is largely ineffective while the PIV's kite and gibble the saps trying to zook,RR, or sticky as the great AI tanks they are. On top of that  PV's>allied tanks for most of the war until the final allied doc unlocks when they become much closer. Where is the counter to this? AT guns? Current games are just axis hunts for AT guns while PIV's gibble along the way.

So possibilities? Make them purchasable at vet2 as in the old days? Make it a defensive Doc unlock? a separate unit for less availability? At this point in the war it seems to be out of wack. Allies can't field enough AT to counter from what I've seen. 

wait till i run a german steel with 6 p4s with all skirts company

[AmPM]

Try using something other than infantry to counter it?

I haven't had to much of an issue with them.

[zinser7]

Try using something other than infantry to counter it?

I haven't had to much of an issue with them.

really? here i thought I'd throw waves of un-upgraded rifles at them to gum up the treads.. 

I'd like to know the build you were using to counter? With my inf company I was running 4 AT guns 3 with AP rounds plus 2 up gun sherms and stickies... also had 3 rangers but those are fail without reapers for skirts so they were saved for light vehicles... but 8+ skirted p4's in a 3v3 is a bit crazy

[Aggamemnon]

The problem is that in bigger games, it's compounded, especially if your team mates are not geared for so many tanks on field.
My Brit company is forever struggling with not enough AT/too many tanks to deal with.

[AmPM]

M10's will drop a P4 down to pretty low health. Never use a Sherman to fight other thanks if you can help it, its inefficient.

M18's can do it from Ambush as well.

For my AT I have 2 ATGs, 3 M18's, 2 M10's.