vCoH vs EIRR

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[fallensoldier7]

but you also managed to beat us in a mod where you take half or even 3/4 the micro and macro away from the game so I understand how anyone can lose in complex rock paper scissors.

Definitely less macro intensive than the regular version of CoH, but I personally think EiR is more micro intensive because you have a limited number of units to work with, so you can't just produce a new unit if you lose it.  The only times that great micro doesn't pay off are when your teammate is terrible and if there is lag.

[RubixCubed]

Definitely less macro intensive than the regular version of CoH, but I personally think EiR is more micro intensive because you have a limited number of units to work with, so you can't just produce a new unit if you lose it.  The only times that great micro doesn't pay off are when your teammate is terrible and if there is lag.

In eir you don't have to worry about reinforcement times, territory harassment (well there is little of it), economy. If anything unit preservation skill is required a lot more. As you said you have a LIMITED amount of units. Instead of worrying about 8vs8 units in a typical 1v1 you have to worry about 6. Half of those 6 you can don't give a fuck for more than 10 seconds and they'll still be there. As you said you can't produce a new unit if you lose it. Well in a fairly competitive 1v1 losing a unit and you're seriously fucked. Ever lose a riflemen squad in a 4 rifle build? You're SO FUCKED! with the upkeep/reinforcement cost and shitty triage you can't do jack for shit. EIR actually gives you what smokaz would call recrew which are pretty much throw away.

Let's look at early game Wehr Vs Americans. Flank vs flank protection. Probably one of the best made things about VCOH. I mean you have pios planting mines probably every 20 seconds at the same time capping, being watched on by you, and ninjaing around rifles to do harassment. Quick built wire, MG rotation, Base harassment, responding to flanks, newly built units, teching, resource management is all a factor. vcoh is more of a representation of quick thinking and micro as EIR represent on map based strategies and unit synergy.

Anyways, I love EIR more than regular COH and if you mis interpret my post as a HATE EIR thing than please read the whole post.

[RikiRude]

but you also managed to beat us in a mod where you take half or even 3/4 the micro and macro away from the game so I understand how anyone can lose in complex rock paper scissors.

Definitely less macro intensive than the regular version of CoH, but I personally think EiR is more micro intensive because you have a limited number of units to work with, so you can't just produce a new unit if you lose it.  The only times that great micro doesn't pay off are when your teammate is terrible and if there is lag.

EIRR is more tactical and micro intensive. vCoH is all about build orders and cutting off points.

[Smokaz]

I'd say COH and EIRR are completely different, the only thing that was truly enjoyable with vanilla was early game when both players were trying to grab an advantage using crappy infantry. This was always fun no matter what. Good Post by potter

[Mysthalin]

I disagree with potter, actually - he's implying that macro is actually micro : flanking, mass-use of units, build queues, resource management, base harrasement - all those belong to macro, the "grand scheme of things". AKA Strategical layer of warfare.

Individual use of each unit and it's abilities to your best advantage is micro. AKA Tactical aspect of warfare(which EiR bases itself upon and prides itself of). MG rotation does indeed fall under micro, but it is simply silly to claim that turning MGs does not happen in EiRR. Map-based companies? No, that isn't particularly prone to happening in the current instance of EiRR due to no pre-set maps, and no actual knowledge of what game-mode you're about to play. I'm pretty certain a company that excells at defending abeville will utterly fail at attempting to take it over in an attack game.

[spinn72]

Both games require a similar amount of skill i'd say, probably all things considered at the top end of stuff vCoH is harder (when going for the leaderboard positions) because it involves tactics used in EIR being used in vCoH.

However saying that the player skill level here is very high compared to the normal vCoH game.

either way both are fun and challenging.

[RubixCubed]

Map-based companies

you changed map based strategies into map based companies. So I don't understand where you're coming from.

Also when I talk about resource management, flanking, base harassment all fall under micro imo. Also i'm categorizing this into bigger chunks so I don' have to say click volks in the center between two mgs and see what they do. I'm saying that micro comes down to all these parts. Your resource management because coh lacks base expansion also resources are changing hands constantly in any competitive 1v1. To the point where you dont' look at it as let me capture 2 fuels this game you have to look at it as i should cap this now, prevent him from decapping, and mining it. Which all falls under micro. Pioneers place mines and come back to it later. Sending rifles behind MGs which is also micro intensive.

EIRR is more tactical and micro intensive. vCoH is all about build orders and cutting off points.

so when you defend from 4 flanks controlling the 2 sector points you cutoff with 2mgs 2 volks that is no micro? If anything that's a buttload of clicks. You have to flip mg estimate time for the gun to start firing and if the rifles will pass and if you see the rifles are going to past you're going to click the mg across your other mg. Flip that other mg and have face those rifles flanking your first mg. During this whole period of time you have to use 2 volks to put fire to keep surpressed rifles SURPRESSED and your bike to bike push any rifles going to flank and reposition mgs effectively. OH boy one engagement

[fallensoldier7]

Lol wth?  I don't remember starting this thread.

[Killer344]

I split it from this thread http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=12223.0.

[jackmccrack]

I think EIRR is more balanced than vCoH.

Sometimes, in vCoH, you lose if you start on the wrong side of the map. It's also more difficult to field counters when you really need them.

[Mysthalin]

No potter, I disagree.

Deciding which points to cap, capping them are strategic, macro level decisions. Same with "should I cap that territory and take on the enemie's main force while my teammate(s) flank around, or should we all punch at the same time?
Mining them is indeed micro - same way mining an enemy advance route in EiR is. I see no diference in the two, and stating that vCoH is more micro intensive because you mine isn't exactly right.
So you're saying no EIR player sends rifles behind MGs?

[Two]

vCoH requires more skill/is harder. FACT.


Yet i havent played vCoH in months, and havent played it for real since 1.71 or OF release (but i only played PE then and it was insta win with them) Due to it being lame


EiR is fun due to the persistence part of it.

[Mysthalin]

I disagree - EiRR is about the teamplay aspect of it. vCoH team games involve spamming 2 units to win without any brain or skill whatsoever.

vCoH 1v1s are pretty intense though... However, I would still say EiRR is considerably more challenging. Possibly due to the much more skilled playerbase.

[Demon767]

RTS = Best start wins.

/thread

[shockcoil]

IMO vcoh is definately much harder and unforgiving than EIR. In vcoh if you lose that first rifle you're pretty much fucked, EIR losing your starting callin is bad but not detrimental. People seem to think that EIR is less forgiving because you don't get your units back but really in vcoh its the same because your opponent is gonna have more units than you. Also reinforcing makes it better but if you're spending MP reinforcing while your opponent is not he's gonna have more units than you. Also in vcoh the scale is a lot smaller so every squad counts for more.

Oh and I also think vcoh requires more micro because of teching. In EIR if you want that mg gone you use your mortar/tank or whatever. vcoh early game you need to flank it which is a lot harder than it sounds if your opponent is anywhere near decent. Seriously pulling off a successfuly riflespam against a good wehr player takes more skill than anything in eir

I mean don't get me wrong I love EIR but to say its harder is bs.

[Mysthalin]

What about doing riflespam against a competent player in EiR?
Talas seems to be doing pretty good, and he fields zero tanks .

[HeartBreakOne88]

I mean don't get me wrong I love EIR but to say its harder is bs.

not 2 sure about that like every1 else im sure theyve played against loads of so called pros and white wash them and  those pros just eventually give up after a few game because they cant compete and blame it on balance

[Draken]

After watching top vcoh 1v1s I don't really think that micro is better there. I watched seph vs someone else, not to mention that he tried to destroy atgs with atack grounds instead with atack move, he menaged to have 2 hetzers stickied from same rifle squad, not to mention stupid infantry micro blob, retreat, blob, etecera. Only worth to note are tricks like pushing out from cover with keten (wow )

Vcoh is about learning teching and repeating same tactics imo, it just gets borring.

[Groundfire]

After watching top vcoh 1v1s I don't really think that micro is better there. I watched seph vs someone else, not to mention that he tried to destroy atgs with atack grounds instead with atack move, he menaged to have 2 hetzers stickied from same rifle squad, not to mention stupid infantry micro blob, retreat, blob, etecera. Only worth to note are tricks like pushing out from cover with keten (wow )

Vcoh is about learning teching and repeating same tactics imo, it just gets borring.

That was a tourney, with money on the line. Gotta think like starcraft.

When the match isnt so important, ive seen amazing 1vs1s. (anything with more players is just junk.)

[HeartBreakOne88]

not to mention stupid infantry micro blob, retreat, blob, etecera.

thats the treason why i think vcoh is easier, its more forgiving with that retreat button.
In this type of mod you have 3 options if you make a mistake, retreat,die or rush in to save the unit.Yes you might have more of the same units but you still have to watch for mistakes because you dont get a 2nd chance with unit