T17 vs Single shrek grenadier squad and a Pak

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[Smokaz]

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=12313.msg210047;topicseen#new

Based on the discussion in this thread which sadly got out of hand. What I want to achieve is to make people see that the upgunned puma needs to be buffed against the t17 because its the only unit that a can compete for pop and mobility with the t17.

Thrown in my lap I get the message that much less mobile shrek/pak is a good counter to the t17. The core of the problem is still that wehr can't compete with the mobility of the t17 because the t17 doesnt reliably lose to a puma unelss the puma is standing still, a test which was done in the Balance Advisor Forum and confirmed this. To further the point that the upgun puma needs to perform better I did a test of a t17 versus a 4 man grenadier squad with a shrek and a pak supporting it.

I'd like to contest the claim that the shrek + pak is a reliable hardcounter to a t17 on its own. The t17 is simply too resilient and dodging to be reliably killed by this combo alone. Here's the result of recent test games where we pitted a unvetted t17 with skirts against a single shrek 4 man grenadier squad and a pak of varying vet.

A likely scenario is that the t17 comes in surprisingly while the perfect scenario is that the t17 charges head on, we tested both but abandoned the likely scenario after the first test because it favored the t17 to the extreme, it killed both units taking a single hit from the shrek. The other possible scenario variation is what happens when a gren squad occupies a building, no doubt the t17 will lose to a shrek in a building.. sadly other than having a 2 pop pio building a bunker every time you need to fight a t17 you cant move buildings around. The test was done with me controlling the t17 and Baine controlling the pak/shrek. Pak was cloaked in all of the tests as the t17 attacked.

Test 1: The "likely" scenario - T17 WINS
Vet 1 Pak / 4 man 1 shrek
T17 comes in surprisingly, pak is unable to get a shot off. Some fail micro results in it getting a shot in right before the pak dies, but other than that it is unharmed. Shrek misses or is pushed the entire confrontation.

Test 2: "Perfect" scenario - T17 WINS
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 shrek
T17 just brutally barges in there and takes 2 shots as it approaches. Shrek hits once. T17 wins with a sliver of health.

Test 3: "Perfect" scenario - PAK/GRENS WIN
Vet 1 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
T17 user fucks up and lets the pak get 2 shots in while it is circling and it takes 2 pak shots and a shrek on the approach. 2 man pak and 10% hp 2 man shrek survives..

Test 4: "Perfect" scenario - T17 WINS
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
Pak misses on approach and is unable to get in the 2nd shot. T17 kills pak and shrek squad with 40% hp remaining.

Test 5: "Perfect" scenario - PAK/GRENS WIN
Vet 1 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
T17 takes a pak hit on approach, shrek is hitting. 1 man shrek squad and 2 man pak survives.

Test 6: "Perfect" scenario - PAK/GRENS WIN
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
T17 takes pak hits on approach. Gets engine damage from kar98 on 30% health. Unlikely result, but acceptable.

Test 7: "Perfect" scenario
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek - PAK/GRENS WIN
T17 loses outright with 4 man grenadier and 3 man pak surviving. Pak was allowed to hit the t17 while circling due to fail micro.

Test 8: "Perfect" scenario - PAK/GRENS WIN
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
T17 loses outright, all hits on pak and shreks.

Test 9: "Perfect" scenario - T17 WINS
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
Pak misses on approach. T17 beats up pak in 2-3 shots. Grenadier squad would have died to pushing so we didnt actually bother to kill it since Baine only had 2 shrek squads in his company, but I am fairly sure everyone agrees that its unlikely a shrek squad would be able to beat a 70% hp t17 on its own while pushed.

Test 10: "Perfect" scenario - T17 WINS
Vet 2 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
Pak hits on approach. T17 muscles down them both circling without push. Escapes with 10% hp.

Test 11: "Perfect" scenario - Grens/pak win
Vet 3 Pak / 4 man 1 Shrek
Pak hits on approach. Shrek is able to hit the t17. Pak survives with 5% hp left on the weapon.

So lets see here. A grand total of 5/11 times the t17 charged this 9 pop combo head on overall and beat it more or less by sheer muscle. 1 of the these games were the one where the t17 came in from the side.

 If we discount the unlikely event of the t17 getting engine damage from a kar98 the t17 won 5/10 times. 50% is a reliable counter? And 9/10 of these games were the perfect scenario where the pak "knew" which direction the t17 was coming from.

If we count the kar98, but discount the player of the t17 letting it be hit while circling (not optimal micro) the t17 won 4/8 fights .

If we discount the unlikely event of kar98 giving engine damage and fail micro allowing the t17 to take shots while circling the pak where the t17 actually loses, we have the tests left where the pak may or may not have hit the t17 on approach but the t17 was not taking damage from it after it had closed the distance with the pak. 5/8 of these tests the t17 won.

I wonder if a sherman or a m8 would have been able to win as much as the t17. I also wonder what the effective health of a skirted t17 is against shreks and paks.

As it stands now, for POP, both the mobile counter of wehr and the slow moving counter for same pop is unreliable against the t17.

test replays: (1 battlefile, several replays since baine only had 2 shreks in his company, ironicly.)
http://www.filefront.com/14581727/t17%20vs%20pak%20and%20shrek.rar


Conclusion
What other population equivalent counters to the t17 does wehr have than a shrek + pak or a upgunned puma, that is mobile and able to be employed aggressively? Mines cannot be moved up. The puma can only beat it standing still. The pak+shrek is unreliable at best.

Is wehr expected to camp buildings or bring a pio + bunker along every time they want their basic AT combo to reliably beat a t17? (And once you include a pio and a bunker, you basically could have sent a p4.)

Remember its for POP and mobility here.

[gamesguy2]

T17 is basically an ostwind with M8 dodge, speed, and accuracy.

[Tymathee]

So how would you gather you buff the upgun puma? If you buff it too much, then it's a light tank killer that would take out tanks better than a T17 would because of it's higher penetration especially vs m10s and m18's.

Also fausts are really good vs t17's and stags, and do enough damage to get into the engine crit stage.

It's also sorta the same thing with axis heavy tanks, what pop equiv can take out a KT? I can pretty much gurantee you that if you take 4 AT guns vs 1 KT head on, the KT wins by pure brute force.

[Tymathee]

T17 is basically an ostwind with M8 dodge, speed, and accuracy.

please, ostwinds do a lot better vs infantry than t17's do and the t17 is basically useless vs tanks without any type of back up.

[CrazyWR]

Fausts are horrible vs t17s and stags tym, its broken.  It takes like 6-8 fausts to kill them right now, and thats just t17s.

Ostwinds rape t17s...

I'm curious how far apart you had the pak and the shrek squad, because there should be no way to push the shrek squad AND circle the pak at the same time...

[LeoPhone]

nice once smokaz,

also renember the staghounds, theyre much more common. (and probably win 100 out of 100 times)

also, i tought this would be handy to have a pricing compare:

T17                                                                               Staghound  
Doctrines: Armour                                                            Doctrines ALL
Pop 8                                                                             Pop 8
Manpower 330                                                                 Manpower 350
Ammunition 60(sandbags)                                                  Ammunition 75 (50 Cal)
Fuel 75                                                                           Fuel 80


pak 38                                                   Grenadiers
Pop 4                                                    Pop 4
Manpower 380                                        Manpower 240                                         together 620 mp
Ammunition 120                                      Ammunition 140(schreck)                           together 260 mu

[gamesguy2]

So how would you gather you buff the upgun puma? If you buff it too much, then it's a light tank killer that would take out tanks better than a T17 would because of it's higher penetration especially vs m10s and m18's.

The upgunned puma doesn't need a buff, the T17 needs a nerf or a massive price increase.  The staghound MG just needs to be fixed to be the same as the M8 version.

Also fausts are really good vs t17's and stags, and do enough damage to get into the engine crit stage.

Fausts do half damage to T17/M8s, thats 50-62.5 damage a hit, "really good" indeed.

It's also sorta the same thing with axis heavy tanks, what pop equiv can take out a KT? I can pretty much gurantee you that if you take 4 AT guns vs 1 KT head on, the KT wins by pure brute force.

KT will not beat 4 ATGs.  I've killed a KT(poorly supported) with just one ATG and three carbine rifles with zooks and stickies.

KT has never been a problem, its too slow and vulnerable to a multitude of threats.

please, ostwinds do a lot better vs infantry than t17's do and the t17 is basically useless vs tanks without any type of back up.

Ostwinds do a lot worse than the T17 against infantry that can actually fire back.    And since when is the ostwind useful against tanks?  The difference is the T17 can actually run away from an enemy tank.

Ostwinds rape t17s...

No, me and smokaz tested this a while ago.  Ostwind beats a T17 with like 25% hp left, which is silly if you compare cost.

[chefarzt]

Fact is:
I saw t17 dodge like 7 pak shots from me.
Worse for shrecks.
And if u hit it still takes like 5 hits to actually die.
Conclusion:
Raise pop, or price, or work on the unit stats or make pumas survive at least 4 atg hits.
Or:
Get rid of TOV units.

[LeoPhone]

So how would you gather you buff the upgun puma? If you buff it too much, then it's a light tank killer that would take out tanks better than a T17 would because of it's higher penetration especially vs m10s and m18's.

Also fausts are really good vs t17's and stags, and do enough damage to get into the engine crit stage.

It's also sorta the same thing with axis heavy tanks, what pop equiv can take out a KT? I can pretty much gurantee you that if you take 4 AT guns vs 1 KT head on, the KT wins by pure brute force.

1
there are buffs that make a cetrain unit stronger vs only one other unit

2
fausts..... ARE NOT GOOD AND GET DODGED DONT DO DMG AND DONT DMG ENGINE

3
kt is a t3



edit:
also, ive just played a game. where a stag was flanking us, he drove back to their side meeting a stug and a schreck squad. he got away with no dmg at all

and that happened a second time.

[CrazyWR]

Was that before or after Relic nerfed t17 penetration?

[gamesguy2]

A long time after.  Its part of the T17 vs upgunned puma tests we did for the advisor forum.

[RikiRude]

The biggest difference between the ostwind and T17 is the fact that the ostwind usually won't hit shit on the move, while the T17 hits more on the move.

[chefarzt]

The biggest difference is that Ostwinds die to 2 atg/zook or a few more rr hits, whereas the t17 keeps rollin on, guns blazing just to return fully repaired to wreak more havok.
Well and the price too as far as i remember.

[VERTIGGO3]

So how would you gather you buff the upgun puma? If you buff it too much, then it's a light tank killer that would take out tanks better than a T17 would because of it's higher penetration especially vs m10s and m18's.

Also fausts are really good vs t17's and stags, and do enough damage to get into the engine crit stage.

It's also sorta the same thing with axis heavy tanks, what pop equiv can take out a KT? I can pretty much gurantee you that if you take 4 AT guns vs 1 KT head on, the KT wins by pure brute force.

Health:
Puma 310
T17  350
Stag  450

If that isn't a problem to start with... since the Puma is the slowest of them, and fires slowly as well.

[Smokaz]

T17 is the topic of this thread, not the staghound

[RikiRude]

So how would you gather you buff the upgun puma? If you buff it too much, then it's a light tank killer that would take out tanks better than a T17 would because of it's higher penetration especially vs m10s and m18's.

Also fausts are really good vs t17's and stags, and do enough damage to get into the engine crit stage.

It's also sorta the same thing with axis heavy tanks, what pop equiv can take out a KT? I can pretty much gurantee you that if you take 4 AT guns vs 1 KT head on, the KT wins by pure brute force.

Health:
Puma 310
T17  350
Stag  450

If that isn't a problem to start with... since the Puma is the slowest of them, and fires slowly as well.

Ostwind has 400 health. Just thought I'd throw that in as well.

[VERTIGGO3]

Exactly. The T17 has almost as much health as the ostwind, fires twice as fast (no reload) and moves faster than any of them. It also has stun, so heavy tanks avoid it, not to mention the ostwind pretty much screams "please hurt me" while the T17 just says "ha you missed me"

[pqumsieh]

I'd have to agree, the T17 is quite a powerful little light armored vehicle. If the M8 was a sherman, the T17 would be a pershing. Lets not forget that T17's are also effected by some doctrine buffs, making them slightly more powerful then vanilla T17s. Either way, it doesn't matter since any armor player will likely get the abilities that buff it.

I'd recommend a price increase, probably a bit more MP/Fuel. I don't think buffing the upgun puma is the solution to the problem, nor do I think comparing an upgun puma to a T17 is necissary. The upgun puma just doesn't work well because it only counters a few vehicles under relatively strict circumstances. You might consider arguing that the upgun puma needs more damage or a greater rate of fire in exchange for a slight cost increase.

Just my thoughts,

PQ

[anthony210]

I agree a price increase for the T17/Staghound is in order.

[puddin]

vetted t-17 gets 15% health then a 25% health bonus on top of it....