Recent balance suggestions roundup

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[Ununoctium]

Stags have some health but 4 pak shots they die same as a t-17 but the 50 call kills a pak faster.

And here, are you seriously complaining that a T-17 won't survive 4 ATG shots? Name me one light vehicle that will. Hell, a P4 can hardly survive 4 57mm shots.

uum... Name me 1 light vehicle with that damage output and price.

It just doesn't fit.

[puddin]

t-17 dies to 3 pak shots and the pak never fuckign misses. 

So your whole Whole Pak and 1 gren shrek is a mute point, HEll most times a single shrek gren ssquad wins... 

I can;t remeber thelast time i saw a t-17., nerfed into shitty ass unit that no one plays with.  So there, you got your wish. 

And Only Onboard players really used t-17s, What made them deadly was you had 3 lives with them and youcould run in, hit some units get out, evade some shots, but not stick around to keep the killing. 

It got half health, and ou ran away healing back to full rinse and repeate.  Made the unit truly usefull. 

And Piats, I use them,m more then probly anyone, The reason ytou need 20 is so that maybe if 2 or 3 penetrate, they will do some dmg, But bring a panther to a fight, POR a P4 with skirts i will bring 2 sqads or even 3 and face of front to front vet 3 and all, LEts see how many times it takes to kill you. 

Also, Piats, Not the easiest to get in at close range, kiting them and and all, Makes a panther a devistating wepon considering you can kill a guy almsot with every shot if standing still at range... 


All these modifiers and shit, Sorry i never know them... I just play7 games and see what happens... All i knwo is that a charging P4, Deserves to be desroyed going face to face with At Weponry...  But at range, Which is where most battles happen... they own my ass... Itts only with carefull fflanking and some luck you catch a tank good enough to kill it....  Rarly do I get a clean volly off at decent range to do much unless they charge in..

And Ambush... Don;t act liek its the end all be all... I didn;t think they got much ambush bonus anyhow, On mando piats i never ust it as IT takes time to go invisi and on top of that 1 guy normally doesn;t get hsi lazy ass in cover making it impossible to hold fire. 

Piats Don;t have to be super accurate, All my VEt 3s never ever get any rear armor shots from the front, A rather funny and enjoyable side effect from Bad accuiracy...

Piats don;t need better accuracy, They need a slightly faster fly time. 

TRHe real problems piats have are Armored cars, Pumas, and Inf Half tracks... Which is ok, THey shoudl have a weakness. 

Moving vehicles makes them miss, But With the so called "Improived accuracy"  the moving vehciles get away every time because it happens liek this. 

Vehicle moves, Keeps rolling piats fire at where it Was not where it Will BE.  With worse accuracy... Aklot of the times they shot in front behind and to the sides, giving you a bit more chance to hit the movign vehicle... 

The only time piats are truly deadly is when a tank is in a turn, Reverseing speed, OR sitting still from the side and rear... 

IF you have skirts... IT gets fuckign disgusting how bad they are, If it efects them or not, I will BEt 5 Commando 5 man squads vs a single panther at medium range, Piats lose to the front armor... Rear armor they insta gib it... 

Don;t beilve me?  Try it.....

[von_Luchs]

Unofficially smokaz ran a whole series of tests of pak+shrek vs t17/stag.  Pak and shrek failed miserably, so I think your wrong on that count.

Shrek by itself beating either of thos two is just fantasy.

[Illegal_Carrot]

t-17 dies to 3 pak shots

Puma and PE AC die to just two 57mm shots. The M8 and Stuart can take three PaK shots before dying. The T-17 and the Staghound can take four shots before dying. At vet 1 with Battlefield Improvements, the T-17 can take five PaK shots before dying. Stop acting like they're so weak.

the pak never fuckign misses.

The T-17 uses the exact same armor as the M8, so anything that will miss the M8 will miss the T-17. If the T-17 is moving at max range, the PaK has only a 52% chance of hitting it.

ytou need 20

Two to three PIAT squads is all you'll ever need at one time. I don't know how the hell you could need 20.

Also, Piats, Not the easiest to get in at close range, kiting them and and all,

Welcome to the world of handheld AT. Schrecks and Zooks have the exact same problem. At least PIATs have Ambush, which lets them get the jump on enemy tanks at close range.

And Ambush... Don;t act liek its the end all be all

Ambush is an extremely useful ability, and it seems like you're overlooking it. Not only does it allow you to engage the enemy on your ideal conditions (close range), but it also gives a 50% damage bonus, and a 300% accuracy bonus. At close range, a single PIAT squad can do 518 damage to a P4 without Skirts, and 389 with Skirts. They're absolute rape.

[Mysthalin]

I'd agree that the stag will likely beat a pak + shrek combo almost all of the time(requires fuck-up from stag user to lose). T17 isn't that good, though, and it's more round 50/50 on who will win...

My personal opinion is that the staghound WITHOUT the MG should not even be given the option of being purchased. Considering the fact that the MG is absolutely unkillable, and that it's what makes the staghound have such superb damage, I do believe it would be right if the staghound itself were just given a 120-140 fuel price, but removing the munitions price for the MG. I would also suggest 9 popcap, but that would be a bit excessive, considering StuGs and StuHs are just 8.

The T17 itself isn't that powerful as a staghound with an MG, nor in DPS, nor in reliability(relies on dodge to survive, having lesser health). The T17 also has a "must-have" upgrade in the form of skirts. I think, yet again, that this should just be integrated onto the unit, without any further munitions pricing, and then we could put up the T17 to 110-125 FU.
Now, some of you will argue that the T17 has already been nerfed enough. But I disagree, just because something has been nerfed several times doesn't mean that those several times were enough. If you disagree, here are some comparisons between the T17 and the Ostwind :


/////////     T17                                          Ostwind
Health       350                                              400
Armor        Phase                                           Can bounce light vehicle shots.
Gun dmg    65 dmg, one shot ~ 1.7s                  40 dmg, one shot ~ 1.3s (averaged totales)
Gun pen     Better at short range                       Better at long range.
Speed       6.4, 4.5 acc/dec                             5, 1.2 acc, 3 dec.
Crush type Light                                             Human, medium.

The T17 has only marginally less health than the ostwind, can not crush stone walls or people and can't penetrate that well at long range.
On the flipside, it has a far better armor type (greyhound armor helps against paks, ostwind armor doesn't help against 57 mms), can penetrate a LOT better at short range and is remarkably faster and more maneouvrable.

It doesn't warrant the T17 to be the exact same cost as the ostwind, but a 110-125 FU cost is quite warranted. I'd suggest 9 popcap, yet again, but only if StuGs and StuHs were 9 as well.

At vet 1 with Battlefield Improvements, the T-17 can take five PaK shots before dying

350 / 0.85 / 0.9 = 457.6.
Still only 4 pak shots to kill it
It only takes 3 without any buffs.
3*115 = 345. 350 - 345 = 5. Seeing as it's within the 5 percent mark of the T17s health, the last shot is capable of scoring a death critical.

I think he meant 20 PIAT squads in the entire company. He's also using Commando PIATs which means he doesnt get PIAT ambush, just a no-modifiers version of falls ambush.

[Killer344]

It doesn't warrant the T17 to be the exact same cost as the ostwind, but a 110-125 FU cost is quite warranted. I'd suggest 9 popcap, yet again, but only if StuGs and StuHs were 9 as well.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc ftw?

[Mysthalin]

Well, looked up the term .

No, I disagree. It'd be the case if I said we need to nerf the ostwind because the T17 was nerfed, which I did not claim.

No matter whether you agree with me or not, but there IS a lot in common between ostwinds and T17s.

[Killer344]

There's no relation between the stug/stuh with the T17 unless proven otherwise , so if one of them gets changed, it doesn't mean the other must as well.

[Ununoctium]

Well, looked up the term .

No, I disagree. It'd be the case if I said we need to nerf the ostwind because the T17 was nerfed, which I did not claim.

No matter whether you agree with me or not, but there IS a lot in common between ostwinds and T17s.

there is a factor that destiguishes them and the brit stag.

T17 is the only one that can engine damge from mortars, nades, and small arms.

Its like the inverse of the 5% bug. remove engine damge and its a perfect tank class  unit.

[Mysthalin]

There's no relation between the stug/stuh with the T17 unless proven otherwise , so if one of them gets changed, it doesn't mean the other must has as well.

They are not simmilar in the way a P4 is simmilar to a Sherman, but they are, in my opinion, on the same scale of usefullness and pop-efficiency as the T17/Stag is. If someone is allowed 3 T17s/Stags, then the other player should be allowed 3 Stugs/StuHs  at the begining of the game as well. And vice versa. You can, of course, disagree, but I do believe that 2 StuGs and a StuH with German Engineering are capable of the same kind of destruction 3 OBM T17s or Flank Speed Stags are (while retaining more power against tanks, which is seen in their higher cost).

T17 is the only one that can engine damge from mortars, nades, and small arms.

Any tank can be killed, or be given other criticals by small arms. It's just it's less likely for it to happen to a Tiger than to a T17. I would not, however, state that using small arms to counter either is a good idea.
Nades - well, unless the T17 is engine destroyed or imobilised already, I doubt your ability to throw a grenade at it. I would know how hard that is, priding myself in having destroyed every single WM tank with an airborne grenade at least once(and even several instances in killing some of those tanks).
A mortar does indeed deal high damage to the T17, though, you are right at that. However - why isn't the T17 moving away while being shot at by a mortar?

[Ununoctium]

A mortar does indeed deal high damage to the T17, though, you are right at that. However - why isn't the T17 moving away while being shot at by a mortar?

Well there are times when a bad ally or a stray shell will hit it.

I never said it happens consistently.

the worst is that mortars and t17s kill the same things at different ranges but you can't use both together.

[Mysthalin]

Well that's just bad luck. I had my panther die to puddin's PIAT blob due to simple bad luck, but I had beaten the same blob with the same panther the previous game - I won't go claiming PIAT blobs are OP just because of a fuck-up on my part.

[puddin]

T-17s get hit often by mortors i got hit often by them, You run in to support infantry, To block Anti inf grens or volks from eating all your temates infantry or your own and a motor round hits, and alot of the time the splash dmg dmgs the engine.  Its not an IF it happens but when.  Every time they hit it dmgs it every time.  Its a massive counter to them, Especially for axis with great range.. Sneak up a mortor, see the unit sitting still for maybe 10 seconds set up fire a round move, Round hits and bam... Gimts the T-17. 

Now With the cirrent nerfs, IF its the same armor as the Pak, I want you to get in game, Line up 10 paks, and runa  T-17 across them all.  Tell me how many times 10 test hit. 

Thats out of 100. 

Do it 3 times.  So get a total of 100 shots 3 times.  I am pretty sure it will be in the 80 range, give or take 5 maybe. 

I have yet to see pak shots, Stugs,, p4s panthers miss since they changed it.  They took away the health bonuses at vet, UNderstandable, But don;t take them away and take away the evasion, They tokk both, made them quite useless. 

Also, Ostwind, Still has much better range...  And against a 57
?  Psssh barly gets shot by them because you can see those fuckers all the time.  6lbers give me more problems... But its still great. 

Also the ostwind again can be used by all 3 doctrines. 
T-17 used by 1 doctrine.  Should be better then the stag, and M8 greyhound not identical.

Rangers, Storms, Airborne, Officers, all Doctrine unlocks, All really good units. 

A stug and Stuh are not the same as a t-17, If anything they should be raised to 9 Pop cap, They take heavy Anti tank to kill them and are a major force to be reconed with.

I argue that a stug with the MG on top and the supression power and human crush.., 2 of those are devisating against infantry...  plus if they have rangers without tank reapers... then they will not penetrate your front armor, and most at weponry doesn;t unless its a At gun or Pershing or 76 Sherman.

[Mysthalin]

Why do I need to run such hard-to-lab tests when I can go to the EBPS of the unit and check up it's armor type, only to see that it has greyhound armour?

Also, Ostwind, Still has much better range...

Both the Ostwind and the T17 have 40 range.
In the doctrinal rework, Improved Barrels is likely being scrapped.

[Ununoctium]

let the t17 be the same as greyhound with stun rounds and n engine damage and no 50cal you have a deal

[puddin]

let the t17 be the same as greyhound with stun rounds and n engine damage and no 50cal you have a deal

THen sand bags and the Skirts are the same. 

How about this, Take out the T-17, While your at it revert all changes. 

Your being un fuckign reasonable. 

How abotu we remove storm troopers GONE
Terrorofficer gone,
Defensive gone,
American gone,
4 man KCH gone,
Kangroos Gone,
Getsutzwagons gone. 

Why do any updates at all and why not do this. 

PErshing = Tiger = KT in everyway.
RRs = Bazookaz = Shreks
Fausts = stickybombs
Hummal = preist = caliopee  ( Will fire 105 rounds and only 6 from now on top down config.) 

Why have diffferent armies.. I know, We can call it... the " INCEST MOD" every unit is exactly like all others with no differences and its all about skilll......

Do you know how Ludicrius it is to have 2 units exactly the same? 

ITs a single unit, Availible to one doctrine, At a very huigh vehicle PP and supply cost. 

Name one other Light vehicle thats 4 Pool value... OR are you forgetting that aspect of it all? 

Its a special unit, IT has a single ability that everyone bitches about, that only makes it good to neutralize a single vehicle/tank ffor an extra 80 munitions, which is roughly 20-30 short of Skirts PLUS an MG on most all german tanks and for 80 Munitions tyou can stun 1 vehicle. tank for a 3-5 seconds, then it moves again... 

Thats it.  On top of that, Are german tanks balenced on the fact they have skirts and MGs? NO, So why is the T-17 being bitched about for the Stun?  The stun needs to be worked on not the T-17.

And you can look at numbers all day long... IN fact i rember people saying the numbers were not that bad before the nerfs... 

What happened???  All these real live tests we never saw replays of but iunstead got told about. 

IF your goign to complain about the fuckign thing, I want another test performed, If your not going to test it, Then shut the hell up.

[pqumsieh]

im with pudding on this matter. much of the debate was anecdotal

PQ

[brn4meplz]

My min beef with T17's(and to a lesser extent Stags) is that Panzerfaust literally just scratch the paint. My previous opening of 6 Assault grens with fausts could kill a Sherman faster then they could kill a T17. They could kill a stag in a single volley like a sherman but that required the Stag to sit still. And as to whoever claimed the Stag's 50 cal is the same as a sherman-No they are vastly different. Thats why one costs 75 and one costs 50 munitions.

A T17 takes an unprecedented amount of Fausts to kill which is retarded. Fausts are supposed to serve as secondary anti light vehicle. Thats why they are on Volks in Vcoh, so you have a fighting chance when someone does a fast Light vehicle rush.

[CrazyWR]

you don't suppose maybe using fausts as your mainline AT may be the problem here?

[brn4meplz]

If i can down everything using 6 Fausts except a Churchill, a Pershing, and a T17 there is clearly a descrepency wouldn't you agree?